Katalina (00:11)
Hello and welcome back to another episode of Career Path. I am your host, Katalina. Today we are discussing Dealing with Difficult People. And here to discuss this really interesting and dare I say, even difficult topic with me is Rebecca Henderson, who is the Director of Legal Network at Velocity Investments. Rebecca, thank you so much for joining me for such a difficult topic today. I'm excited to dive into this.
Rebekah Henderson (00:35)
Hey, thanks for having me. I'm really excited to talk through it as well. I think our industry has a lot of unique opportunities to become experts at difficult people and difficult conversations.
Katalina (00:46)
100%, absolutely. Well, I am gonna start the episode just like we always do. I'd love to hear a little bit more about you and how you got to where you are today.
Rebekah Henderson (00:57)
Yeah, my story does not have a lot of movement in it. I graduated from college during a recession. I feel like like so many of the young people have in the that are kind of coming into the industry. and that just meant I had to go out and answer an ad in the paper. And honestly, collection groups are frequently finding their their staff through newspaper ads. So right out of college. I mean, really when I was 21, I started my first job in this industry.
Not as a collector, but as a legal assistant, and kind of slowly learned what legal collections were, what then managing networks were, and did that really for the last like twenty five years. So been doing the same thing for a very long time.
Katalina (01:44)
Awesome. That means you're an expert, right? So
Rebekah Henderson (01:46)
Yeah, maybe. I did take I took eight years off in the middle of that, where I moved from Atlanta to Greenville, started a family, ran my own business myself. So I've got a little bit of experience kind of shaping my perspective for difficult conversations to customer based and not necessarily consumer based. But mostly just this industry in the same function.
Katalina (02:12)
That's awesome. Well, I am so stoked to be talking about this topic with you, partially because it is such a difficult topic. And I feel like because of that, a lot of people are a bit afraid to to dive into it and discuss it a lot. But it is so important that we do. so to broach this very difficult topic, I think we need to start with something that is core to it all. And that's the fact, not just idea, not just thought, but the fact that absolutely everyone can be difficult. Everybody can be difficult.
Rebekah Henderson (02:46)
Yeah, absolutely. I definitely, as I was thinking through what this conversation was gonna look like, because I have so much feedback. I one of my pet peeves, honestly, is that when people steer away from a difficult conversation, because the difficult conversation, I I don't know how you can be in business and and and and ignore it or try to avoid it. and so when I see people doing that avoiding, it really is one of the things I hate the most.
But the truth is I like I am one of the most difficult people. And I was thinking through the most difficult people I've ever had to deal with are in my family. So I'm very like it's all very personal because the more I feel like the more you get to know somebody, the deeper they are in their relationship with you. Sometimes the more difficult that gets. 'cause it gets personal. It gets it gets long. It doesn't get a short resolution. It has a long tail. anyway.
Katalina (03:23)
Yeah. And it there's, I also think, kind of two different types of difficult people or or difficulty rather. one is perceived, where it's on the receiver's perspective, where inherently what the person is doing is not difficult or is not wrong, but on the receiver's perspective, it's difficult for them. And then there's also behavioral where from the sender's actions, it's difficult.
You're kind of the one rocking the boat. and I think a couple, I actually wrote down a couple of examples so I didn't have to think of stuff just off the top of my head. But like a perceived could be that you ask a lot of questions. and that might not be a bad thing because you're just trying to understand and maybe improve outcomes. but on the other end, you might be annoying the bejesus out of everybody else.
And I have a personal story to share on this exact one, because I was the difficult person back in high school. I mean, I was the kid that like reminded the teacher about homework, so I already wasn't starting on a good foot. But I was in an advanced or AP calculus course in high school, and we would be learning these just wild equations and we're trying to memorize them, and we're like just doing all this stuff.
And I'd always ask the teacher in front of the entire class, he'd like teach us this new equation and be like, all right, everybody's gonna like break up and you're gonna work on these things. I just raise my hand and I'd be like, but why are we learning this? Like, why? What what what is the reason behind this equation?
And then he'd be like, so it's actually to you know, calculate the trajectory of the line of a curve of a and I'm like, okay, cool. but why are we learning that? Like, how is that applicable? Cause in my brain, I'm going, why are we doing this? Why are we memorizing?
The quadratic formula when nobody's teaching me about taxes. Like, was trying so hard to understand. Yeah. The rest of the class hated me. I mean, hated me. Every time I rose my hand, they're like, can she shut up and stop asking this question? The story does have a good ending, though. I finally did get an amazing, amazing response from that exact teacher.
Rebekah Henderson (05:29)
Yeah. I'm very similar.
Katalina (05:52)
I'm raising my hand again, going, why? Why are we learning this? And he said, Here's why. Your brain is a muscle. Just like different parts of your body, you need to exercise it. So by learning and working on these problems, you're exercising your brain and you're expanding your mind and you're practicing skills like just by trying to do these problems.
And I was like, that is the best answer I've ever heard. And that's all I was looking for. And I shut up after that. I never raised my hand again. I was like, I get it. Done. But I was I was the difficult person to that entire class.
Rebekah Henderson (06:27)
I think if any of if anybody can take away anything from this, it should be that the question asker is not viewed as difficult because I'm also the question asker. And I I f look, I've worked at it, I've worked at four different places in this industry, and I fully recognize that when you are sharing what you feel like is a simple idea, I now keep my questions usually to the end and I write them down as we go.
But I'm going to have four questions at the end because what happens 100% of the time is that when somebody is comfortable with the knowledge that they have, like your teacher, they're just telling you. They're just telling you how it is. And like that, that that happens all the time in the workspace. And it's like, great, but if I'm the receiver and the ignorant one, then you didn't connect enough dots for me.
And you also can't know the dots that are in my head that I need connected. So I need to tell you where I am missing connections. And so I do that at the end of the conversation now, but I I promise I want everyone to walk away from this knowing the question-asker should not be considered difficult.
Katalina (07:32)
They still might be perceived as it, but just kind of keeping that reframe in your head that like, hey, asking questions is clarifying. Try not to receive it like that. but as a as a sender, like a great example of somebody who could be a sender of behavioral difficulty would be somebody who always assumes intent in everybody and be like, you said that because this. And it's like, whoa, you're just making wild assumptions left and right, and like that's a more behavioral difficulty.
Rebekah Henderson (08:03)
100%. So I polled my team before this call and we kind of wrote down what are some of the most difficult people or characteristics of people that we consider difficult that we come into contact with. And probably three of them are that where it's like it's not just a question, it's a question with either a preconceived intent or a question like the first thing that came up in our conversation is the person that can find a problem for every solution.
And in the workplace when we're trying to like, what's the process? Like we have a problem, what's the process? How do we fix it? How do we, you know, sometimes the fix is we fix it and we go backwards and resolve. Sometimes we just stop bling like all these things have to be kind of fleshed out.
And if you've got someone there always sharing the the negative like, I guess potential outcome or just like, that's gonna be hard, that's gonna be whatever. that th those people are the worst, the most difficult, I should and so you're reminding me of that I'm sure that person is also asking questions, but maybe those questions sound a little bit different. Where it's like, well, how are we ever gonna do this? How are we and it's like those aren't productive questions.
A question asker isn't necessarily bad, but certain questions are for sure.
Katalina (09:17)
Yeah, when it's like, okay, you just it the question is more like a roadblock. That's when it's like, man, that's it, it becomes harder. one last thing I want to say before I I'd love to hear like the rest of the list that you put together. That poll idea was incredible. I love that you took the time to do that.
But I wanted to mention that difficulty I think can also really be situational, not necessarily permanent or part of personality, but like if there's something going on, like maybe somebody isn't normally the naysayer, but they're really nervous about a particular thing, they may suddenly become difficult in that one situation.
So it's you might not be a difficult person all the time, but in specific situations, you you could be difficult or other people could be difficult around you.
Rebekah Henderson (10:01)
Yeah. I and I think it's funny because when we were having this discussion, so for Velocity, I manage the relationships with any firm that does legal work for us. And we come across like we're suing people, people are suing us, there's a lot of disputes and we come across a lot of difficult situations.
And it is funny how sometimes the same personality on a productive call about, you know, numbers or catching up over like a dinner at a conference, those conversations can have like a very different tone from the same individual that you enjoy in all those other circumstances when it's like, okay, we've both been sued. Now what are we gonna do?
And that person kind of approaches it like, let's say defensively or whatever, it is it is one of our it's like our job as as people developing relationships to make sure that when people like you know somebody well enough to know they've brought something different here than they normally have. So how do I normalize this for them? Like how how do I bring them to where I am?
Because we as a team, we were talking about a lot of times we get a lot of defensive attorneys on the phone because we're the client and they get extremely defensive and we're like, hey, like it's our job to bring them back to a place where they can approach this conversation very factually and not defending their position.
Katalina (11:21)
Yeah, you're you're touching on what I think is a a key point of this whole discussion, which is why people are difficult. And and you're covered like the the idea of like stress or or pressure or even burnout could be a reason why people are acting differently and being difficult in certain situations. another thing that I I've at least personally seen a lot is different communication styles.
Rebekah Henderson (11:36)
That's right.
Katalina (11:44)
If somebody is like, I'm just very direct and they they don't beat around the bush about anything, other people might be like, that person's mean, and they and they don't intend to be mean. So it could even be a a bit of a lack of self-awareness in there, or even not as much emotional intelligence. The person might be wildly brilliant, but not emotionally attuned to the fact that this person, you need to kind of tread lightly with and this person you can talk to a bit more gruff and they're just like, nope, I'm just direct across the board. And then it becomes sometimes a situation of even misunderstandings from that.
Rebekah Henderson (12:19)
Yeah, and I it's so funny because in your personal life you can have boundaries and if you if you're dealing with somebody who's difficult, then you can just spend less time with them a lot of times. When it's somebody in your workplace, you're exactly right and you've got to I think sometimes just decide that we aren't gonna have an easy conversation. Like this isn't gonna go easily.
And even I like I have examples in workplaces where I've had to let that person have whatever, and I'll albeit like I'm a lot, I talk a lot, I love to know people, I'm very bubbly. And so if someone is at a different place in their life, they may just find that really annoying.
Like in their this was more like when I was in the office working. then it's a it's a little bit easier now that I'm remote to where I'm only having interactions with people on a meeting. But used to it was like break room stuff. And look, my vibe is not always appreciated by every soul that came into work that day because they had, whatever day they had getting there and just letting that be okay and not trying to win that person over or not trying to take that personally or not trying to make that something we need to have a confrontation about, but just letting that be our relationship until time allows it to be differently.
Because time does seem to always eventually create scenarios where eventually they get to know you. And I get to know that person well enough to know, okay, this is why they hate it when I'm loud. This is why they hate it when I raise my hand. Like these are the things but it when you first meet people you don't know that. You can just tell I don't think they like me very much.
Katalina (13:53)
Yeah, no, totally. And I think you're you're touching a lot on like personality differences too that can cause a lot of misunderstandings. If it's like direct versus indirect people or people who are very fast thinkers people who contemplative and they they need time to like mull everything over and that might frustrate the the fast speaker because they're like, No, no, we just need to go and go and move and and move quickly and break things and the other person's like, No, we gotta think about this and like really plan out our execution. And when those personalities clash, it can be very difficult for both sides. Both sides will probably perceive the other as the difficult person.
Rebekah Henderson (14:33)
You are not wrong. You are not wrong at all.
Katalina (14:36)
So I also want to touch on going back to something you said previously, where you said there's like the person who asks the questions when we have solutions, and all they're asking is like, well, how are we gonna make that the questions are almost like stopping the process because they have all of these nay nays to everything. And I want to shine light on the fact that that can sometimes be a positive.
Wha, what is the saying?
The dreamer builds the airplane, but the cynic brings a parachute. And it's like sometimes we need the cynic because if there's something wrong with the airplane, thank goodness somebody did think that extra thought and go, maybe we needed a parachute in case this whole plane idea doesn't work out. So even though dealing with difficult people on either side, if it's perceived on both sides, if it is just one person, whatever it is, there are actually a series of positives that can come out of it.
Rebekah Henderson (15:30)
I think that's a good way to look at it too. Because if you've got someone in your work group who is saying what what you're perceiving as negative or not even just negative, but like very pessimistic toward your idea, which that can feel like a personal attack to somebody who is an idea person. and asking them like, hey, not just the negative, but how do we take what you're saying you're seeing in my idea and turn it into more of a parachute versus ⁓ and so like as you know as a way to deal with a difficult person because if you're the idea person and you're the person trying to lead people down a path, look those sort of negative questions are going to be perceived as making that person difficult.
And it's unfortunate too, because you're not wrong, like sometimes especially difficulty is really just a method of communicating where, maybe you're and I this has been my this has been my sort of lived experience a couple of times, depending on where I've worked, where I'm the younger person and I just have ideas and I'm working with people that have been doing it the same way for 20 years.
And so every idea is met with you know, other people's opinions about the benefits of doing it the other way. And to your point, I think there's a way to functionally say that. So if you're being perceived as the difficult person, I think there's a way to maybe reframe kind of what you're saying are the potential issues and maybe raise your hand a little differently and say, hey, not trying to poke holes, but I do see these as potential hurdles.
I just want to make sure that you're leaving space on the back end because I see these potential risk elements developing and I want to make sure that we've got reports in place or ways to identify that something has gone wrong versus just saying a like negatives towards a person's idea. But to if you're the speaker, view that more as like, hey, is there an opportunity for you to offer us a parachute in reporting or whatever that looks like because you're able to see something that we can't see.
Because let me tell you, those are some of the hardest espe- like in our industry where we have to keep a shifting, we're constantly regulated, and then it's changing regulation. And then we're having to shift really everything that we probably like a lot of historical processes that maybe are not even broken. It's just they're going to be regulated differently now. So now we've got to go in a different direction. Look, there's plenty of times where it's frustrating for everybody. You're being asked to do something that's really difficult and and sometimes counterintuitive. And so it's very frustrating.
And then to have somebody being like a naysayer along that road can be like really add fuel to a fire that's unnecessary and probably gonna make that person be viewed in a negative light. So being able to frame it, realize I'm the one who's bringing something difficult to this conversation, how do I reframe my concerns as like, look, guys, we need to make sure at the end of this conversation we list out the risks and how we're gonna capture those or see those in the data or whatever that looks like.
Katalina (18:35)
That reframe is brilliant. Because like you like you said, those things can be positive. Just the way you literally package the message can make all the difference in between being perceived as difficult or being perceived as productive and actually assisting the process. Those difficult conversations and those difficult questions can still reveal gaps and help increase performance, raise standards and challenge assumptions that the team might have. So it's a very important message, but you're right that that packaging can mean the difference a hundred percent between difficult or like with the team, kind of.
Rebekah Henderson (19:15)
Yeah. And you really I mean almost in any workspace, you don't want to be perceived as not on the team. Really, ever. Even if even if secretly in your heart you're you hate that team. Like it doesn't benefit you at all to be perceived as not part of the team.
Katalina (19:31)
Now I really would like to dive into the idea of boundaries because I know this is a very hot topic term right now in the world. We talk about boundaries a lot. and I think it plays a big role in this. So what what would you say the biggest role boundaries play with dealing with difficult people?
Rebekah Henderson (19:39)
I think there's two kind of ways to look at it. I think there's there's boundaries that you say verbally. ⁓ there's boundaries you say as somebody who's in charge of a project and says guys I hear all your concerns. Right now we're just gonna focus on a solution. So I think there's a ton of benefit to communicating to people very clearly.
Especially I can't emphasize this enough, you are working remotely. You need to be saying verbal boundaries because it is not a workplace. They are not seeing you in the break room, in the bathroom, in the hallway, in the in the parking lot, or afterwards. So there these people are not learning your boundaries unless you're capable of of verbally saying, You may be right, but this is where we are right now.
And then in the relationships where it may be a little more off the page, look, for sure, they're just those people that you're gonna have to say, man, like every time I bring up this sort of topic with them, they always go negative. And listen, again, like we just said, that's not always wrong, but it's okay to say, I'm not ready to receive that.
Like I'm not at a place where so recognizing that is not necessarily a negative towards them, but recognizing it's an inability right now for you to really respect what their input is and to say, it's okay that I put up a boundary there. And to me, that probably is more on a personal side because if somebody in a workplace is bringing up legitimate concerns of risk, like there's probably not an appropriate time to put up a boundary for that. but boundaries are critical to just like living a sane life, especially…
Katalina (21:25)
That's a great definition there. They're critical to living a sane life. Yes.
Rebekah Henderson (21:29)
Well, you have to, because you've also got like people when I used to manage a group of people in the office, and and I stopped. I like before I left the industry and took my little hiatus, one of the things that was becoming overwhelming for me was how much I really invest in in the people that I manage. And I want to see their personal growth. And so when I see behaviors or when I hear stories of their life that are really are working against where I feel like their goals are.
I get concerned. I I'm I'm upset for them. I'm upset with them. I'm very like I'm I'm in their trench with them. But at the end of the day, that was leaving me very drained. ⁓ I can't, it's not really functionally possible for me to both manage a stressful environment plus be invested in this many different human beings. and now that I've come back to the industry and it's been remote.
It's gone swimmingly. I can't recommend it enough. Because if you're a personality like me where I feel like I want to manage people and I want to make sure they're developed, but I become like overstimulated when I'm seeing a lot of bad behaviors. Like if I'm investing in somebody and I want them to be promoted and become a better leader in the organization, but they're coming in late and they're they look they're not dressing appropriately and they look sluggish.
And I'm gonna let all these things bother me into over evaluating like it or them or having too many conversations. Whereas now that I'm remote, you know, all those things I don't see. And so I'm very much focused on simply a critique of somebody's work or their output of their work. which has been, it's a fantastic place to be. It's fun that I now know that about myself. Do you know what mean? Like, and that's a forced boundary, but it's been an amazing boundary.
Katalina (23:12)
Yeah. And you you touched on the important distinction a couple of times in there that that a true boundary is not necessarily about controlling others. In fact, it I said not necessarily. It definitely is not about controlling others and saying you can or can't do this and blah blah blah blah blah. But it is about what you will and will not accept on your end. Like you were saying, you're like, I I can't accept that negative feedback about this project right now. That's not productive for me.
So what practical boundaries truly, truly are is that you don't keep opening the door to the same negative patterns. You're setting that boundary and being like, hey, the negativity around this project, around whatever we're working on, it's not productive. So we we need to kind of move on from there. And the boundaries also require consistency because if you don't enforce them, people aren't gonna respect them.
If if it's only like you said, you have to say it verbally. And if you only ever verbally say it once and then it continuously happens, and you don't speak up. If it continuously happens and you don't again speak up, then you don't actually have a boundary there. You have a loose mention of something once. So making sure that there is consistency is important.
Rebekah Henderson (24:28)
Yeah. Well, I say this to my team all the time. Like, if it's okay to say something and just say the actual, like, I hate that this conversation has gotten confrontational. So you are not reacting to the fact that they have gotten defensive or maybe they raised their voice. But you can say in plain words, like, use your words, I'm sorry this has gotten confrontational. Because what typically happens is the other side goes, I didn't mean it to be.
And then that reframes where you can proceed. Cause then you can say, well, I just heard you get louder and I assumed you were upset. And they can they can say yes, I am and I shouldn't be, or they can say, no, no, I'm in the car and I'm just having to yell. You know, they can say it it allows like for there to be no misunderstanding. And I I've I ask my team to do this all the time again because we're managing relationships over the phone typically.
And so you or over email, which is the best pace for a misunderstanding, right? And so just say the words. And so if it's boundary related, you can just say, hey, I I need to have a boundary here, but you and I can have an aside. Like let's you and I connect on Friday after this week has gone by and see where we land. But and then if they keep doing it, you can say, Don't forget about that meeting. I'm still gonna have to stay with that boundary.
Because I think it's okay to if you don't know how to set a boundary with somebody, use the word boundary. Like I feel like people people want to overthink it, or they want to imply an implication is also terrible typically. Because if you meet defensiveness with defensiveness, of course that's escalation. But if you also meet defensiveness with, well, then you misunderstood, you started deciding like so somebody got defensive on a phone call.
And you immediately perceived this person, they're not open to what I'm saying, they are not going to understand. So you end the phone call thinking that they're not open, when really, if you had just said, Hey, I don't know how this got confrontational, but can we talk about that for a second or whatever? You never gave them the opportunity to say, No, no, that's just something else. I was frustrated from this day. I was frustrated walking into this, and that's not what I intended to relay to you.
So you may leave really having hurt yourself, not understanding that person.
Katalina (26:56)
That curiosity, coming with curiosity makes all the difference. I've been doing so many episodes where that continuously comes up as a pattern. And I think it's probably at this point what I would rank as one of the most profound things to add to your leadership arsenal is leading with curiosity in things because it can clear up so much. It can just, it can do so much by just having that.
Now we kind of started dancing around this idea, so I want to dive deeper into it. let's talk about when it's more than just difficult and when it it is actually going into the realm of something being toxic, like a toxic workplace or a toxic situation, or even a toxic person, because difficult and toxic, not the same thing. It's definitely a jump up.
Rebekah Henderson (27:43)
You know, I got the best advice. I had a really good boss just a short while ago. And I I had a lot of toxic people I was dealing with. And she gave me the best advice. And so and I've shared this with people and they've used it, so I know it's good. it's just a script. Now, this only works really if you're the boss because look, there are toxic people who if they're your peer, look, say whatever you want, and they may feel no obligation to make a relationship with you.
And I think that's when like boundaries are really helpful. but if you're someone who has a leadership role and you've got someone who's toxic and you just can't get them on your page, get them on board, a one-to-one conversation that's structured in this way, this is what I've seen.
So real life examples of real words that have been said, an email that's been shared. This is what I've seen. And because of those things I've seen, this is the story I told myself. I told myself, gosh, I don't think she can ever do it. I don't think this person's ever gonna be on my page and say, so I would love for you to tell me if you think I've misinterpreted. So it's this is what I see, this is the story I've told myself. Can you tell me a different story?
And the amount of times that person can come back and say, yeah, and they totally reframe it and you realize you're wrong. So it is because like I have I took over a group in a previous job where everyone was already kind of upset, like the everyone was generally unhappy. and and I had a really specifically difficult person. But at the end of the day, her frustrations were valid.
We were gonna never agree. Not one second. Her frustrations were valid to her and for her lived experience, but that wasn't what was gonna impact us moving forward, and we were gonna have to leave that behind, and she wasn't going to. But when you frame it like, hey, I'm framing this like you're never gonna make it there, at least she was able to say, You're probably not wrong. I am at this point over it. I don't think I can do it, but you're right.
We do need you know what I mean? It created this like safe space to talk through what are the real issues instead of me feeling attacked. Instead of her feeling like she had to beat this understanding into me. Like I could never understand her lived experience. And so she kind of understood, I care, but I don't care that much because we gotta move on. but there's this, there's a place for your feelings. And so I have never used that unsuccessfully.
And then I've given that to other people. And so and I think I think the person who taught it to me read it out of a book. But I don't know what book. but it works. It's it's the best way to kind of approach people in a very not aggressive way.
Katalina (30:30)
What an incredible script. Thank you so much for sharing that. I need to like jot that down and actually use it. Thankfully, right now I have a fantastic team where I don't think I'm going to need to use it, but I want that in my arsenal so that I absolutely have it when I need it. And 100% success rate sounds incredible. so thank you so much for sharing that.
I also wanted to make sure to kind of list out a couple of things to look out for that that differentiate difficulty and toxicity, both just kind of in general and specifically in the workplace. I would look for people being purposefully disrespectful, not just saying, I don't know if that would work, but like actually actively being disrespectful towards you, towards others.
Any forms of manipulation, especially if it is a pattern, repeated boundary violations after it has been made clear that there is a boundary, and of course, of course, of course, any unsafe situations. Anything that's unsafe, that is no longer just difficult. That is toxic. That is a problem that needs to be handled immediately. Very important distinction.
Rebekah Henderson (31:26)
Yeah, totally agree. That's difficult. And hopefully always in an environment where you've got a trusted HR group that you can kind of start escalating or that that other person's manager. In your personal life, sometimes you gotta draw hard boundaries. And sometimes those boundaries are like it's not just avoiding a group chat or removing yourself on social media. Like sometimes it's like I will not physically be alone.
I mean like, I'll be honest, in my past, because I started in this industry when I was 21, there were people in my 20s, that we'd go drinking after work. And there were for sure people that I would never be caught dead having a drink with by myself. and there were people that I felt completely comfortable. And I hope I don't know if anybody ever picked up on the pattern. I did at one point have to tell someone's admin, hey, if you ever try to book me with this person, I will always decline it.
But if you want me to be in a meeting with that person or travel with that person, you will have somebody else there. And she completely understood. She was like, probably smart. And I like, I think like there's times and it wasn't because I was unsafe, but I didn't feel right. And so I've been I've always been able to communicate that, like that's especially females, I feel like, understand. But honestly, I think most men would too, it just has happened to be with females.
So I mean, there's always, I feel like, a confidant that you can find and say, This is my, level of concern. Like what should be my next steps? because there are plateways to make sure that your boundaries can be physically physical barriers, you know. I physically don't want be in this person's presence by myself, period.
Katalina (33:12)
Absolutely. Well, as we round out this conversation, since we started with the idea, or rather the fact, as I said before, the fact that everyone can be difficult, I would love to talk about how self-reflection can play a role in that and and be very beneficial to figuring out where and when you may be difficult.
Rebekah Henderson (33:32)
That's so funny that you say that. Cause like there was a period of time in my thirties, in my early thirties, where I decided I was gonna go for counseling, which is the best decision I ever made. And I was counseled by this amazing woman, very successful. and I needed that. Like I needed not just like a random counselor. I needed a woman who was the top of her field with multiple degrees and and who could really give me like solid, meaningful feedback for how to interact with certain personalities.
Here's what I knew when I left work I watched other people interact with the same person that I found impossible I watched other people interact with them successfully and I needed somebody to take that to and say hey because there are times when it's them and there's times when it's you and I needed this person to help me flush through that at around the age of thirty, where I was hopefully trying to have meaningful leadership roles in the organization.
So it isn't like it used to be. You know, it isn't like, that person and I can just do business, I can kind of be successful without that person at some level. You need people. You need the people at all the levels to be on your team to be successful. And so I really had a wonderful counselor who would help me through those relationships. And I can't like recommend that enough. So whether that's like someone just investing you or a friend, but somebody that you can take and say, You have enough self awareness to say, I don't interact with this person successfully.
I'm not getting out of this conversation. I went in there and I wanted them to agree with me and they didn't. But I watched them be successful with other people. I mean, look, I have for sure worked with people that I've tried all the angles and I can't win them over. And look, that's sometimes when you gotta say, I don't know if I can work here because to be successful, I have to win that guy over.
And I can't. And I think that's okay too. but it was incredibly beneficial for to have somebody call me out and go, Okay, walk me through exactly what you said, and then say, like, hey, you can't say that to certain types of people. Like it has to be reframed or it has to be in a different way.
Katalina (35:37)
Yeah. It's asking the questions, like, okay, where where might I be difficult? What role do I play in this dynamic or in this situation? And am I contributing to any friction? And if you're somebody who's like, but everybody around me is difficult, absolutely everyone else is the problem. If you are the common denominator, you actually might be the problem. But that's where growth comes from.
It comes from that awareness from adjusting your approach, asking those questions, and then being able to to move forward because of that. The fact that you went to counseling, kudos to you. Huge. I do as well. And I think it has majorly changed my life. It's it's huge to have that self-reflection and that awareness. That is where growth truly, truly comes from.
Rebekah Henderson (36:30)
Yeah. And too, I mean, to your point, like y you wanna be telling it to somebody who you've gotta be self aware, you've gotta know, like, okay, I know I'm contributing to this and hopefully you have somebody to interact with about it that can give you good advice. I mean, I would say if I had spent years leading up to actually finding a a functional counselor having these conversations with my friends or my coworkers, which is a little bit more of like gossip, and I never made it better.
It feeds that secret little voice in your head that's like you're weak and you can't. And so when you actually have a conversation with somebody more like a a mentor or a counselor, like a very successful type of counselor where that's what they're counseling you for, you get really good advice because you get people saying, Hey, it's you.
Like you're describing situations that you are the problem in. And then having a good enough relationship with them that A, they're able to tell that to you and then B, you want to take their advice. those are really critical.
Katalina (37:31)
Yeah. So in short, I think from everything we covered, first takeaway is that everybody can be difficult sometimes. Sometimes it's you, sometimes it's not. Everybody at any point in their life, you will be difficult at some point. boundaries are essential, not optional at this point. You gotta be able to build them, you gotta be able to speak up about it, and you can't control others, only your response. communication and curiosity go such a long way.
It goes further than confrontation for sure. Difficult people can also teach you something if you let them and if you reframe it that way. And if you are being difficult, also trying to recognize that reframing it yourself, having that self-reflection, that is where all the growth comes from. Rebecca, this has been just a phenomenal episode with you. I want to thank you so much for coming on today. Like I I've loved this entire discussion. You have been amazing. Thank you.
Rebekah Henderson (38:26)
Thanks so much for having me, Katalina. I was really excited to do this. It's created so much positive thought work for me and my whole team, I think. Like what are the what comes out of this in the future, I think, even in the next couple of days, will be great. So excited.
Katalina (38:41)
That's awesome. Yeah, truly, this is a conversation that I think is gonna span a long time. And I might even invite you back to continue this because it has been such a such an incredible discussion. To all of our listeners, if you have any questions, comments, or topics that you would like to see us discuss, please leave them in the comments below and we will always do our best to get to all of them. Otherwise, we will see you in our next episode. Thanks. Bye.
Rebekah Henderson (38:45)
Thanks.
