Katalina Dawson (00:11)
Hello and welcome back to another episode of Career Path. I am your host Katalina. Today we have a very unique episode. It is titled Career by Design. So this isn't about trying to find yourself along the way in a career or building different things along the path, but actually having a vision of what you wanna do and creating your entire career path around that.
And to talk with me about this topic today, I have Irene Hoheusle who is the Compliance Advisor of ARM Compliance Business Solutions. Irene, thank you so much for being here today. It is such a pleasure to have you on.
Irene Hoheusle (00:47)
Well, thank you, Kat. I really enjoy talking to you and I'm happy to be able to talk about this. Thanks for inviting me.
Katalina Dawson (00:53)
Yeah, of course you are such a pleasure. I mean, I absolutely adore talking to you and it's also really fun because I feel like I almost have the quote unquote full set of ARM Compliance Business Solutions because Sara's been on and of course Debra's been on now I get you and I think there's only one more team member and then I will have the full set as all different guests on my podcast. So it's so exciting to have you on. It is great to have you here. So.
We're gonna start with a question I always start with which is can you tell us a little bit about yourself and how you got to where you are today?
Irene Hoheusle (01:25)
Well, sure. Well, like you said, I'm Irene Hoheusle and I have the pleasure and honor of working with people like Sara Woggerman at ARM Compliance Business Solutions. I love being a compliance officer. I've been in the debt collection industry for over 30 years. I'm a first generation Italian from New York. So I do have a little bit of a different accent. A little different mindset than a lot of people.
But now I'm just a Kansan with a Brooklyn accent, that's all I am. And I do love to share my opinion. As far as how I've got where I am today, well, to be honest, this wasn't my career path at all. I mean, originally I wanted to be a ballerina, so that wasn't gonna work. But we don't wake up and decide to be in the debt collection industry. That's not usually how it goes unless you're born into it because your family owned the business.
We want to be astronauts. When we're five years old, we want to work at McDonald's. We want to work playing with toys. And I can't say now playing with toys might help because everything's electronic. And if you want to get into that field, maybe it will help you. But overall, we don't know what we want to be. We can go to high school and still not be sure. We could even go to college.
Katalina Dawson (02:10)
True.
Irene Hoheusle (02:29)
How many people get a degree and don't use it? How many people get a degree and it has nothing to do with the career they wind up ending in at all? Even though I'm a true believer in there's no such thing as wasted education. That's not a real thing. So I got into this, it was kind of like a lovely accident.
I got a job at an agency back in 1997. I found I'm good at this. And then after a while, I found I was really proud of being good at this. And I wanted to learn more. had desire. I had ambition to learn more. I made it my business to learn more and then to apply what I learned. And before you knew it, I'm running the collection department for multiple offices. I'm head of all compliance. I'm creating and training all the training for everybody in every department.
And I got good and I found my career. It was really an accident, but I paid attention. So it made it different.
Katalina Dawson (03:17)
Yeah, a lot of people say the same thing. You fell into this career one way or another. So I've heard that story before. But it's also, every time I hear it, it's a little bit unique of how you got to the industry. So it's fun to hear your background.
Especially, I very much vibe with the, like, when you were younger, you never thought you would be here. Like, I definitely, especially even today, I'm sure you can see I love dinosaurs. And as a little kid, I used to say, like, I really want to work with dinosaurs. I want to be like a paleontologist. I do that today. It's more of a hobby thing.
But yeah, let's dive into this topic of career by design. So, of course, at some point, we fell into this portion of our career. But in order to truly design your career, you kind of have to have a vision of what you want to be or where you want to go to create the path around it. So how do you do that? How would you form your vision of your career?
Irene Hoheusle (03:47)
Well, those of us who are lucky, which I think is the rare case, and know what they want to be and lead towards that, I mean, that is great. But even those people had to work hard, had to get the education, had to learn things.
So you have to ask yourself questions when you're trying to figure out, you know, how far do I want to go in this career? I mean, it might be questions as simple as, being in this career will allow me to spend time with my family? I want to travel.
Will being in this career marry me to my desk, where I could never get anywhere? Or will this career actually help me with travel? That's part of the career. Do I like this job? Am I actually interested in this? Do I want to do it for the next 30 years? Or do I want to do something else where I'm not bored, and I'm not feeling like, well, this was a hole that I dug for myself. Do you really want to put in the work?
Some people are very happy just where they are. Some people aren't. So you gotta be realistic. It's probably not gonna be easy. It's probably gonna take time. Are you ready? Are you committed to that? Are you committed to getting the education you need? And when I say the education, I don't mean formal education. Some careers need formal education. You wanna be a doctor, you better be educated. I'm not going to some fly-by-night doctor who didn't get an education.
But sometimes the education could be real-life education. Sometimes it could be learning from others, whether it's learning what to do or learning what not to do. And we'll talk about that in a minute, but committing the time to doing it. I hate to say it, and I might get people mad at me for saying this, but there's a lot of people in our industry or in any industry, the younger people who kind of feel like I'm entitled to this.
You know, hey, I got my degree in this, and now pay me a lot of money. I'm titled in this, or I learned this. I took the time to learn it. So now I need to be the boss. I mean, I need to set my rules and ask what I want. And that's not really realistic in business. Now it is to a point more than it was before.
I'm a baby boomer. I was raised to believe you work your butt off and you will succeed. You work hard. You will succeed. You keep your mouth shut and do your job. You will succeed. I don't believe in that anymore.
I do believe about the work hard part. You have to work hard. Nothing is going to come easy for most people. So you do have to work hard. Education could mean something as simple as talking to the right people. It could be practice. It could be putting things into place. It's not just going to school and getting the education. That could be part of it, but that's not all of it. And we have to stop thinking, well, I did the degree. I got the education, so I'm entitled to this position. You need to promote me.
The questions you might be asking yourself is, I want a remote job or do I want to be on site or do I want a hybrid of the two? What, what, do I really want? Like what, what, if I'm going to be a doctor, I can't have a remote job. It's not going to work. ⁓ unless.
Katalina Dawson (06:46)
Yeah. 100%.
Irene Hoheusle (06:56)
Unless my office is in my garage, I'm probably not going to be a very good doctor doing that. I'm going to have to have a regular medical facility with employees and everything else. So knowing what you want is going to help you to commit to the time and the education you need. Because if you're not being realistic from the very beginning, you're going to shoot yourself in the foot. You're going to look back one day and say, this isn't what I signed up for. This is not what I want. And now you waste all this time.
Katalina Dawson (07:20)
Yeah, it's finding like, is it realistic for me? And then by extension, defining your own version of success. Because what you might think is success is not the same as everybody else. It might be, you know, like I would rather have lower pay, but like you were saying, I need to work from home because me being with my family is the most important or whatever it is.
And I did a whole episode of the podcast where we talked about how you define success can also change. The older you get and kind of like, I guess exploring that and thinking about it. Cause like right now in my career where I travel so much, I love it, but I really want to be a mom one day. And when that happens, I'm not going to be wanting to hop on a plane like every month. So it will definitely evolve a little bit.
Irene Hoheusle (07:51)
Gosh, yes. Well, look at someone who wants to be a teacher. There's many reasons. I have a daughter who's a band director and she always wanted to do something in music. She's just unlike me, she's very musically inclined and she wants to do something in music. And I told her, you live in Kansas, they don't pay well for teachers in Kansas. She goes, I don't care. She's been a teacher now for what, 15 years?
She's well known in the industry. She does so many different educational courses at conferences and things like that. She's a leader in her school. But the big thing that she loves about it is she loves the kids. She loves teaching the kids. And when it comes to her home life, because she's got three children, she loves having summers off. She loves spring break off. She loves when the kids are off school, she's off most of the time off school. Does she make a lot of money? No.
Katalina Dawson (08:32)
Wow.
Irene Hoheusle (09:00)
Is she happy? Extremely. She considers herself very successful. I look at her and I'm like, good for you. I have another daughter, two other daughters who went for statistics of all things. You think talk about that must be the most boring subject of all. The older one who's like a genius in statistics, she wanted the family life.
So yes, she does work for a school. She's head of the math and science department at a college, but she wanted the same thing. She wants to be home with her kids. She just wanted that and she to her this was her success and she's an extremely happy 43 year old. Then my youngest daughter who's just under 40, she decided no I want statistics but I want to make money and she does. She has made herself extremely successful. She makes a lot of money but she married a man who makes decent money too and between the two of them they're able to call the shots a little bit.
So because they're in the position they are and respected like they are, they can call the shots. They are home with their son more often than others are. She was able to say, well, I want to work from home. If you want me, I'm going to work from home. She's full time working from home. So she gets to be with her child. So yeah, what is the goal that you want in this life is going to define that success? Because if someone is just, it might just be a title. I want the prestige of a title. I'm searching to be president of this company. Okay. Are you qualified to be president of the company?
Did you ask and find out what the president company actually does and know if this is something you're be happy in? Gonna take up too much of your time? Just because it might make the dollar signs might be there doesn't mean that you're successful. I don't consider successful just dollar signs. Yes, it's part of it. I wanna be able to function and not worry about my future and be able to retire and be comfortable. But that's only part of the success.
Your success may be defined differently and that's going to be your career path because if you're just going for the money your career path might succeed in that one aspect but doesn't mean that you're happy with what you're doing so yeah i gotta love what i do and believe it or not i actually love this isn't that strange i love this i'm good at it yeah i love what I do.
Katalina Dawson (10:59)
Yeah. No, that's not strange. ⁓ All of us, we love different things. And that's what's so beautiful about it is things can get done because people have those different passions. Like I could never be a surgeon. I would pass out. I would not be able to handle that. But people are fascinated by that and they love it. So go ahead, go do it. Love what you love. And it's beautiful that we have that.
Irene Hoheusle (11:16)
Christ!
Well, I think that if you, once you know more or less, well, this is the direction I want to go. Once you've answered all those questions for yourself and you go, no, this is where I want to be. If you're working for a company that you love, that you like, and if you just feel like you're getting stagnant, like you're not moving forward. Do something about it. I mean, or if you're working for a company that you feel, can't do anything about it, well, maybe it's time to start looking to work for a different company.
But if you're working for a company you like, you enjoy the job, you enjoy your bosses, but you want to move forward and you're not, it's time to make an appointment to speak to the decision makers.
Katalina Dawson (11:57)
Yeah.
Irene Hoheusle (12:04)
It's time to make an appointment to speak to somebody who has the authority and ability to help you in your career path. And then to be totally honest with them. Look, I love it here. I love what I do, but I think I could offer you more. What do I need to do to prove to you I'm a good candidate for X position. How do I earn this position? What are the next steps? And see what they say.
They might come out and say, well, yeah, I don't think you're right for that position because of X, Y, OK, what if I took courses to learn how to do that better? What if I found a mentor and helped me do that better? How long would you give me to prove that I could succeed there? And they might say, OK, well, if you could show me in six months that you could do that, I'll consider you for the position.
Do it. Do what you said and go back to six months. If no, if month seven is rolling around and they haven't said anything, make another appointment. Go back and say, Hey, you know, this is the career put me on. I feel I've succeeded and don't brag just give facts.
Katalina Dawson (12:48)
Yes. So this would be kind of the second part. There's the forming that vision in your career, but once you're in it, this is the kind of the designing of your career path within it, which sounds like what you're saying is all different versions of advocating for yourself.
Irene Hoheusle (13:17)
Well, definitely, you have to. You have to advocate for yourself because you are the person who knows you best. I can leave a room. I can never leave myself. I'm always going to be there. No matter what I do, I'm always going to be with me. So I need to make sure that I like me and I'm happy with me and I'm proud of me because I can't run away from myself. So put yourself in a position where you feel proud.
But there's a difference between bragging and advocating for yourself. Saying I can do this or I can learn this so I could do this is different than saying well I did this and I did that and you should this and you should that. That's not advocating for yourself. That's bragging. Being a, let's say you're in a lower leadership position but you're in a leadership position and you want to move up.
If you're always kicking your employees under the bus, no one's gonna wanna improve your career. No one's gonna wanna say, well, you're a great leader and you need to move forward. I could say I've been here for 10 years and I deserve it. That means absolutely nothing. I know lots of people who have been in their job for a very long time that would make terrible leaders. They might not even wanna be a leader.
You don't promote people just because of tenure. You promote people because of their abilities, of what they could do for you, of what they offer. And if I could offer something, and I don't even know I'm supposed to be offering it, and they tell me you need to do this, I'm gonna learn how to do it if that's really what I wanna do.
Well, you know what? They might scare me off of it. They might say, you need, you know, you wanna be president of the company? Well, the president needs this. The president learns that. The president has to have that. And I might be thinking, all right, that's too much. I don't wanna do that.
How about I'm vice president of the company? But there also might be, I can do that. I can handle that. I already know that part. You might feel like actually better when you're done. It's just like going to a convention. I'm a real big believer in networking.
And not just because it's fun and the people you meet are great and there's no such thing as too many friends, but I'm a big believer in helping people, you being the mentor and being helped, finding a mentor. If throughout my career, I've spoken to so many people, I could throw names around all over the place that I asked questions and if you see somebody where you want to be and they're approachable and they're friendly, what's wrong with having a cup of coffee with them and asking, so how'd you get there?
What did you do? What mistakes did you make? What do I need to avoid? Give me some advice. And it's amazing how not only do you create this close relationship where they're a mentor in the future for you, or you might recommend them for something else, or they might even want to being a peer of yours in the same company one day, who knows. But you're learning so much without making all the mistakes.
My dad was a crazy Italian and he used to always say, there are people that are educated, there are people that are intelligent, but not everybody is both. And it's true.
Katalina Dawson (15:53)
Yeah.
Irene Hoheusle (16:06)
Because I can get as much education as I want and I could not have common sense. Or I could be my father who never made it past eighth grade in Italy, who was one of the most intelligent people I ever met in my entire life. But was he educated? As far as the idealistic definition of education, no, he only made it to the eighth grade.
Was he educated in his career? He was a body and fender man. I'm Italian, everybody owns a shop. He was a body and fender man and he was one of the best at it. He was one of the best welders and he was one of the best fathers. Did he learn that through school or did he learn that through desire, ambition, personality? So even as a leader is looking for somebody, when I was promoting people, because I was a vice president for a company for many, years.
If I was promoting somebody, that's what I was looking for. I wasn't looking for, okay, what did you do so far? That's some of it. I'm looking for what are you capable of doing in the future? Prove to me that you're capable of meeting the requirements I need for this position. And if you can't, prove to me you're willing to learn and that you can. And I think that people forget that.
Katalina Dawson (17:01)
So for somebody, who might be timid about doing this, about advocating for themselves, about taking those steps, what kind of advice would you give someone like that?
Irene Hoheusle (17:20)
Well, have my youngest daughter. She was always somebody. was always that she still is a sweetheart. She's 38 years old. She's still a sweetheart. But my daughter, Maria, was always getting walked on by everybody in her personal life. She was always very like, I just want to make you happy. I want to avoid any conflict or any type of argument. And she was like that for years. My sister used to yell at her, Maria, you're too nice. Stop being so nice. And I would say to her, and my sister was worried, and she'd do the same thing in her business career, and she doesn't.
In her personal life, she's still a little bit where she just wants to make everybody happy. She's a very nice person. In her business life, no Mr. Nice Guy anymore.
She's the person who will go in that room and say, no, this is what I want. What do I need to do to get there? You tell me how I earn this position. And she has excelled so much. I told you I have my three daughters and this is the one that makes all the money. And that's why, because she knows her worth. She knows what she's capable of doing and she's not afraid to put herself in a position where she has to learn something new. She's not afraid of that. She knows she could do it because she's done it before.
Katalina Dawson (18:22)
Yeah. But you said something I think also. I'm so sorry, I keep talking over you. So go ahead, wrap up what you were saying and then I'll jump in.
Irene Hoheusle (18:37)
Okay, what I'm saying is that Maria was a person who surprised us all by learning where to be that soft person and where to put her foot down to be the business person. And she has become very successful because of it. And you have to be able to separate your personal life from your business life.
They're different. Stop trying to put them together. They're different. Shut off your business problems when you go home. Shut off your personal problems when you're on the clock and you'll be more successful because we can very easily meld the two together and make ourselves miserable. And that's not success.
Katalina Dawson (19:11)
Yeah. And I think you made a very important distinction there too. When you said like the no more Mrs. Nice girl or however you phrased it, you didn't say that she just bulldozed, but you said that she asked how she could earn it. Just like you were saying before, there's no sense of entitlement, but rather a sense of earning and ownership within the role. So.
I love that distinction. But I also want to go back to kind of what you were saying. And I would categorize that as like trips along your career path that you could make any sort of like trips or faux pas. So what are some other things that you might come across that are mistakes or things that you would need to overcome?
Irene Hoheusle (19:56)
Well, I think part of the problem is not being observant enough, to recognize that you're making the mistakes. It's okay to apologize. If you find that you've done something wrong, go ahead and apologize once. Apologize once. You're not going to sit there and beg and say, oh, I'm so sorry. I really shouldn't have done. Oh, I'm so sorry. You apologize once and then you come up with a solution.
Every time you make a mistake, it should be a learning experience. I don't believe first mistakes are mistakes. I believe they're opportunities to learn something new, opportunities to be better. They say that, you know, once you succeed, you're not counting the 200 times that you failed before you became successful because we learned from our failures too. So don't be afraid of them. I think fear is a factor. People are afraid to approach their boss. People are afraid to make a mistake. People are afraid to put themselves in a position where they're going to be afraid of something.
And, you know, fear is just fear. How many times have you tried to do something you're excited, but you're too afraid, you turn around, you don't do it you go back later and you say, I wish I would have did that. Compared to I did something, I was afraid, I got the courage to do it because courage definition is having fear, but doing it anyway. And I try something, I did it I'm like, oh my God, that worked. And sure, there'll be time to say, oh, I shouldn't have done that. But what'd you learn from it then? What did you learn by doing it and failing?
I mean, and when you fail forgive yourself, I think some people don't, they harp on it. like, I can't believe I said that to her. I can't believe I said that to her. Now what is she going to think? And you go to bed and you're thinking, my God, I can't believe I did that. You did it. It's done. It's in the past. Instead of looking at, can't believe I did that, learn not to do it in the future.
Think to yourself, how can I avoid that in the future? Or how can I have done it better so you're prepared? You know, in role playing, I taught so many collections it can even count. When we would do role play, to me the reason of role play was twofold. One, so I could see if they're learning, if they're picking up on it, if they're copying.
But the other thing is to make them feel better. had a collector once where I role played and I made up the craziest scenario. We did the same role play on the same account, probably 16 times. And every single time we just elaborate a little more on my crazy scenario. But it was the same scenario that you would think would never happen.
Then she picked up the phone and called them. And my God, it was the closest thing to that scenario. I couldn't believe it. We're all laughing in the background because I had other collectors on headset listening. And we're all laughing. And she got through the call great.
She goes, I knew exactly what to say. I said, you didn't seem nervous. She goes, I wasn't. It was basically what we practiced the last 15 times. So it was kind of funny that that happened because that usually doesn't. But it just shows that, you know, the more you practice something, the more you do it, the less fear you have of it. So if you're afraid, the best way to get over that fear is do it. If you're afraid of making a mistake, make the mistake. Just don't blame somebody else. Take the blame for it yourself.
Katalina Dawson (22:38)
Yes, yes. You made me think of there's this judge, kind of like a Judge Judy. And she would often say when somebody would do something or like accidentally talk over her, whatever it is, they'd say, sorry. When she said, don't talk over me. sorry. And she'd say, don't be sorry. Just don't do it again. Don't be sorry. Just don't do it again. She's like, it's not gonna help anyone for you feeling sorry.
What's gonna help is learning from the situation and moving forward. And that's exactly what you were reminding me of right here.
Irene Hoheusle (23:13)
That's right. Isn't that funny? You have to be firm. The old phrase firm but friendly, that's a good phrase to use in business. But my father us that a smart person learns by their mistakes. And then he would follow it up with, but a really smart person learns by someone else's mistakes. If we only have ourselves, we're going to be making mistakes every five seconds. But if we learn by others' mistakes, we pay attention. I said before, ask questions to peers, network.
Ask people in the position you want to be and how they got there. Learn by their mistakes so you don't make them. You'll make your own mistakes, but you don't have to make every mistake. Stop reinventing the wheel every time you do something. Or then we're back to fear. Well, I'm afraid they're going to figure out I want this. I'm afraid they're going to think I want their job. Or I'm afraid they're going to think I don't know something that I probably should know. That's not how mentors feel.
If you're speaking to the right person, they know that I might know stuff you don't know and you might know stuff I don't know. But when we start talking, we realize how we could teach each other. And that even is if someone's way above you. I had a boss who, two sisters, and one boss would be, okay, I get it. The other boss would be, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Because one was listening and one wasn't. And as time went on, they all learned to listen.
But it's because I didn't brag, I didn't treat people like, like I said before, throwing them under the bus, like take credit for what they're doing. You might get away with that for a while, taking credit for what other people are doing, because you're trying to prove I earn that position. I want to be the boss, so I'm earning it. It comes back to bite you. Whether it comes back to bite you by someone else finds out that it was somebody else who did it, not you.
And they tell the boss and now you look bad or because you said you did this and you didn't. So now they expect you to do it again and you don't know how because somebody else did it one way or another. It's going to come back to bite you.
Being honest with yourself is one thing, being honest with others is one thing. I mean, you don't have to volunteer every piece of information. You don't have to go so overboard, but know what that person wants. And I'm going to say another thing too. When you're using a mentor, learn their personality because if anybody's in debt collection, actually speaking to consumers, you know that they all have different personalities. So you have to approach them all differently. Well, it's no different with your bosses.
If you go into a boss's office, cause you want to have that meeting with them about, want to talk about my career path. I want to see what I need to know to earn a new position. That's great. But if you're going to the boss that doesn't listen to you and you're saying, I, I, I, I, they're going to just shut right down. With that boss you have to say, I know you would like to have some, know that I could do this for you. I know you believe in me and I wanna be able to make you happy, you, you, you. But if you have that person that is a pleaser, then it's okay to say I. I think I could do this for you. I think that I could make, there's, I know that I could be in a position to help you. There are different ways to approach people in your business world.
The same way you approach in your personal world as far as how you recognize personalities. Anybody who's a mother could tell you. Mother of multiple children. I have three. They are so different. They have the same core values, but they are three different personalities. I have to approach them a little differently.
Totally differently. I have one that is so smart. She's a genius level I mean, she's she's got an IQ that's above most people in the world She's actually got a genius level IQ and when I would talk to her when she was four or five years old She understood what I said and she would look at me and she'd nod and she said okay mommy when I spoke to my Three-year-old who was her young the next sister.
I couldn't even get her eyes to look at me, I'd like, Jamie, look at me and her eyes, her face would look at me, but her eyes, I couldn't even get her to pay attention. She was all over the place. If I told her don't touch that attach, she was the one who had to still touch it to figure it out. I mean, it's, they're different personalities. I had to approach them differently. I had to sit that one down and make her look at me with the other one.
She could do anything she wants and she'd still get, she'd still get what I said. It's that way with anybody you speak to, you want to ask the boss how you want to succeed. Know your boss enough to know how you want to approach them.
Katalina Dawson (27:05)
Yes.
Irene Hoheusle (27:18)
Because if you approach them wrong, you're going to leave that meeting feeling disconnected, feeling like, that was a failure. I wish I didn't do that. Instead of feeling, all right, well, now I know what to do. I know the next steps. Now they know what I want. I know how to move forward. And if you don't have that boss that's going to listen at all, it's time to look for a different job, whether it's the same career someplace else or a different career someplace else. But the someplace else part is what counts in that sentence. We're afraid to do that. We're afraid to leave.
Katalina Dawson (27:46)
Yeah, be the designer of your own career, even if it means leaving what you're doing now. unfortunately, we're actually out of time already. I knew it was going to go so fast today. But as a quick recap, for designing your own career, it sounds like there's a couple of steps along the way. First is that forming your vision of the career, which starts with defining your version of success. And even if that kind of morphs throughout your life, define it, figure out what you want and not only that, but is it realistic for you? And then you can kind of figure out how to get from A to B once you've set that vision forward.
Once you're there and you're ready to go to the next step, which is designing your career, you have to make sure you advocate for yourself, even if that means pushing through fear along the way, even if that means kind of having a no more Mrs. Nice version of yourself to stand up for yourself, but at the same time, being humble.
You're not entitled, but you're earning and you're learning. It's not just about working hard. It's about working smart and strategically along the way. And there's a huge importance of networking built into that. And then the trips that you could take along the path is that like feeling entitled. Make sure you don't feel that way and you're actually doing the work and don't fall into the idea that time drives entitlement. It doesn't. It's the continued growth that yields it.
And the danger that you mentioned of staying stagnant or getting pigeonholed. Ultimately, everything wrapped up. You said knowledge is everything. And your quotes from your father are stunning. I adore them. And the fact that even if you don't know what to do, you can learn what not to do. That's huge. Just keep learning, keep growing. Did I wrap that all up correctly in a nice bow of what you said?
Irene Hoheusle (29:29)
I think you did a wonderful job, Kat. Thank you.
Katalina Dawson (29:31)
Thank you. Well, Irene, I want to thank you so much for coming on today, for sharing so much about your story, your life, even your family and using them as phenomenal examples of ways you can design your own career and create success for you. So thank you so much for being on today. I really appreciate it.
Irene Hoheusle (29:49)
Thank you for having me.
Katalina Dawson (29:50)
Well, to any of our listeners, if you have any questions, topics, or things you would like to see us discuss, please leave them in the comments below. We will always do our best to try to get to all of them. Otherwise, we will see you in our next episode. Thanks so much. Bye.
Irene Hoheusle (29:51)
Thank you. Bye bye.
