Katalina (00:11)
Hello and welcome back to another episode of Career Path. I'm your host, Katalina. Today we will be discussing how to make mentorship actually work. And I am super excited to introduce Jennifer Sutton to be discussing this topic with me because she is actually quite the expert at mentorship. And for anyone who doesn't know her, Jennifer Sutton is the Senior Vice President of Client Success at RNN Group. Jennifer
Thank you so much for joining me today. I am super excited to have you on.
Jennifer (00:40)
Thank you, Katalina. So excited to be here. Mentorship Mentee programs are near and dear to my heart. You know, you very rarely meet anybody who's got a straight career path in this industry. There's a lot of twists and turns and if you can participate in a program or find somebody to be a mentor or mentee, it often makes the journey a whole lot less stressful.
Katalina (00:59)
100%. Very well said. and on that note, Jennifer, just the same way we open every single podcast, I'd love for you to share a little bit about yourself and how you got to where you are today.
Jennifer (01:10)
So speaking of twists and turns, I graduated college coming out with marketing degrees. So I started my career off in advertising and then eventually made my way to a family-owned collection agency in Nashville, Tennessee. Wonderful experience, fantastic group of people. And it's really where I learned the day-to-day of collections and recovery from all aspects of retail, government collections, student loans, medical debt.
And then from there I left and went into the data world. So today, like you said, Katalina, I work for RNN Group. We service recovery, receivables, insurance, government entities with consumer and business data to support the full revenue cycle. I actually used RNN data before making the switch, which leads me to those twists and turns. In this industry, one day you could be on the agency side, the next you're a vendor, then you're at a law firm, then you're a debt buyer. So having a core group of people not even in a formal manner, let's say, of mentor mentee, can really help you navigate the waters when you're going through different roles inside this industry.
Katalina (02:15)
I didn't even know that you used to be in Nashville. I used to be in Nashville as well. One day we're gonna have to chat about that. That'll be fun. But diving into this idea of mentorship, I'd really love to start with the idea that there are some challenges. I feel like when some people are going, okay, I really feel like I need a mentor, they don't know where to start. There's a couple of different, you know, trip-ups along the way that could be preventing them from getting started. So can we talk a little bit about what those challenges can be in a traditional mentorship setting?
Jennifer (02:46)
Yeah, absolutely. First it's going to start with how. How do I find a mentor? But before you can even look at that, you really need to define what is your goal or the outcome you're looking for. Is it a role that you want? Is it a challenge that you're experiencing at work? And once you're able to define that, then you can really look within your network to see who's got the experience or the expertise to help me through this situation. Most mentor mentee programs, be it formal or informal, aren't meant to be lifelong.
Right. They're situational. How do I accomplish this task or how do I get this promotion? So once you've really defined what the outcome or the goal that you have in mind, then you can start looking at your current network or in turn inside your own office to see where that expertise lies. And then from there, it's about navigating the waters of how do I connect with this person and ask them to be a mentor.
Sometimes the task is really hard for people. That could be a potential goal, right? How do I get comfortable with asking people for favors? but utilizing your network and the people that you know and their people can really help you get somebody to connect that has that expertise or that experience that you really need.
Katalina (03:54)
So you brought up something very interesting there and this is the idea of the internal versus the external mentor. internal obviously being like somebody else in your organization and external being outside of your organization. Can you talk a little bit about what the difference between those dynamics looks like for a mentee?
Jennifer (04:12)
Yeah, sometimes it really comes down to comfortability and confidence. You know, sometimes you really feel like if you've got somebody outside of your organization, you can be a little bit more open, a little bit more honest. You can put your guard down. That's not saying you don't have great mentor opportunities within the organization, but sometimes those can also be looked at, you know, champions for you. Are they making sure that you've got a voice in the room when you're not in the room? Are they promoting you?
That in my mind is more of a champion of your career, a longer term commitment from that person to champion you through the ranks or get you involved in that project. So if you're starting a mentor mentee program and you have access to a network, I say start outside. It gives you the ability to learn from the process, to be a little bit more comfortable, to put your guard down and be more your natural self when you're having conversations with your mentor.
Katalina (05:02)
And how I know you were saying you look for somebody with expertise, but how do you find the right mentor specifically for you? Not just that, they've been in the position that I'm trying to get to, but is there anything else that you are looking for in the specific dynamic to like to find somebody who actually matches you?
Jennifer (05:21)
Yeah, I think about it almost like a teacher, right? So look on LinkedIn. What is their experience? Have you seen them posting? You know, what job changes have they had? Have you seen somebody where you're like, I really, you know, like what they've done here? Or internally, if you see somebody that's producing some great work Utilizing what you're seeing around you to really figure it out.
Who's gonna be your source of excellence, your experience to be able to know and kind of qualify that person for you? It's not so much about age. I could really care less about what age you are. There's great people that are much younger than me that have excellent experiences that I can go to for learning certain things or experiences and navigating those waters. but it's really about.
What is the challenge ahead of you? If you're able to define that, then you're able to find the person with the experience or the expertise. And that's really what it is about. The goal tied to the experience or the expertise is going to be able to help you navigate the waters and you have a successful mentor, mentee relationship for the goal that you're seeking.
Katalina (06:22)
That is such a valuable, valuable frame for it. Because when I used to think, I think we're definitely changing my opinion of it now, and in some of the conversations you and I have had before this, but when I used to think about mentor mentee relationships, and I think there is also a common misconception out there, it's that it's super long term or indefinite, even where it's like this person is my mentor for life, or at least like throughout my career at this kind of job or something like that.
But the idea that you're saying you tackle a specific challenge or a specific goal makes it very focused and kind of opens up this door to be like, okay, I'm not asking somebody to be like, hey, mentor me for life. I'm asking you, I see that you were able to make these milestones and I'm looking to make similar milestones in my life. Can we discuss what that looks like? Can you walk me through it?
Tell me some of the trips and falls you had along the way, so I might learn from your experience. And it makes it more tangible is what I'm really feeling. and I also love that you mention that it doesn't have to be a certain age, because I think this idea of it being more finite speaks to that. Because somebody who might have never been on a podcast before, but might be older than me, could absolutely come to me and I could kind of walk them through the process of being on a podcast.
But in terms of having a long career, I can't help them with that. But there's definitely different things that different people can be mentors for. And breaking those molds of being like a mentor mentee does not have to be somebody very old with somebody very young. And it does not have to be something super long term. It's just a great reframe of this whole concept.
Jennifer (08:08)
Yeah. And you know, it doesn't have to be formal either. There are formal programs and then there are informal programs. You know, the last formal program that I had, a great mentor, her name was Misty, absolutely fantastic, but the timing was so perfect. And I think the program didn't even realize that she was the exact person that I needed because her recent experience was exactly what I was going through. And it wasn't like she was 13 steps ahead of me.
You know, it was like she was three steps ahead. So it was fresh in her mind. It was new. We could have open conversations about, when to push, when to not push, you know, how to navigate it. When should I, when should I back off? Because it was so fresh in her mind. And she was able to really relate, this is what I wish I would have known. So very formal. That was kind of a program that was established where I was put together with somebody. But then, you know, your goal should also be to have an informal conversation.
kind of mentor network, right? These are people who you would go to for you've got a big pitch presentation and you want them to give you feedback. You know, that can be a mentor too. How do you hold yourself to dissect a conversation where you think you're right. And, you take that to a mentor where you're comfortable and you have that dialogue and they give you a different perspective that maybe you're not so comfortable or you don't want to hear that you weren't right in a different way to look at it.
Maybe it's somebody in your network who is exceptional at Excel or AI creation, knows the industry, so on and so forth. But I look at it as if you could have a board of directors as mentors to help navigate you through the waters without a specific goal in mind. But if you've got something up and coming, you know that you can always call on that network to say, I've got a big presentation. Can I pitch you? Can you give me that feedback? You know, that too is a mentor, just informal, not part of an established program should we say.
Katalina (09:57)
Yes, and the idea of a mentor network. I love that. I love that. Like leaning on your entire network. Who can mentor me through specific situations? That is again, Jennifer, I love your reframes. This is incredible. also quick side note,
I also have to shout out Misty Carson. She is incredible. I got to meet her at WCF. I was on her team last year when I went and it was incredible. She is incredible. So huge shout out to her. I had no idea when Jennifer and I initially started talking that Misty was somebody who had this great mentorship relationship with her. And I was like, I can absolutely see it. Misty, you're amazing. Quick shout out.
Jennifer (10:36)
Okay.
Katalina (10:36)
Jennifer, I want to talk a little bit more about how to make the mentorship actually work with the tangible steps of how the mentee drives the situation between finding the mentor and then how it actually works once they've found that mentor.
Jennifer (10:54)
Absolutely. So first of all, the mentee is going to be the person that really drives the overall relationship, right? You need to come with an established goal or challenge that you're seeking to accomplish. It is not the mentor's responsibility to do the homework and bring to the table the questions and make sure everything is on the calendar.
You know, they're there to support you, to show up. And at the end of that mentor mentee relationship, their goal is to have helped you through something and make you a little bit stronger of a leader. So the mentee really holds the keys to the program. You know, what is the challenge or the goal that I want to accomplish? What questions do I have for my mentor to be able to establish a recurring meeting, you know, I'd say once or twice a month, maybe 30 minutes, you know, for a few months until you can establish when you think the goal will be accomplished.
And then make sure that you are digesting the information that the mentor's getting back to you, be it if the feedback is good, bad, or ugly, and then taking that information and applying it. You know, you gotta be comfortable with getting out of your comfort level, right? These are people who are gonna tell you some things that maybe you're not comfortable with. That's a good mentor.
They don't, they can be good cheerleaders for you, but they don't have to be a cheerleader a hundred percent of the time. It's the people that are going to tell you the things that the really polite people aren't going to tell you. Those are some of the best mentors because they're going to be real with you. Their goal is to help you succeed and get through this goal or this challenge that you're trying to accomplish. And then from there you take that feedback and you actually apply it, right? What's working, what's not working, and then you keep that feedback loop coming back to your mentor. So the mentee really is holding the keys to the process.
The goal is establishing the contact, keeping the scheduled meetings moving forward, accepting the feedback, applying it, and then getting that feedback loop back to your mentor so they can continue to guide you.
Katalina (12:53)
That sounds very familiar. I've been recently having a great situation where Teresa Dodson, who's in the industry, has been mentoring me through different situations that I've had. The first thing that kind of kicked it off is I did have a very specific goal and a situation where I came to her and I said, Hey, can I get some guidance on this? And I kind of presented it to her and she said, well, based on this, I want you to go back. And she basically gave me a little bit of homework.
She was like to kind of work through this. I want you to go home and think about how you did this or what you can do better here. And like she kind of gave me some tangible things, which was so great to have. I went back, I went through everything. I actually applied for it. Like you said, I actually went back and I did everything and I thought through everything. I wrote stuff down, had notes, and then I said, Hey, can we meet again? And we got on another call and I went through everything that she had told me to go through.
And then some, because I even was like, well, maybe if she had me break this down, I should also break this down. And then I brought it back to her and I talked to her about it. And she was like, Okay, great job, but here's where you missed stuff. And it was a great moment to be able to see things through someone else's eyes. Not only did she have this initial guidance where she started giving me the roadmap of the next steps you need to do, but then she also was able to identify like, here's where you did fail or or miss something.
I wouldn't necessarily even call it a failure as you're working through something, but where I had any of these little pitfalls, she could help me identify them and really work through them. But it did absolutely take me having those open ears and being willing to do all that work, that the homework that she assigned and and a lot of self-analysis to to really work through things. So
Amazing layout of every single step there. It sounds super familiar for what's been working for me and I hope has been working for other people too because when that's working well, when it's a system like this, I think it's very, very, very valuable.
Jennifer (14:57)
I do too. And when you find a mentor who you know has a personality to be able to challenge you, I think your progression is actually much faster, right? These are people who are going to make you push yourselves, right? You might not think you're ready and sometimes you aren't ready, but you need that little bit of a push.
We're not always ready for the next thing that we want to accomplish, but unless we put ourselves out there, we're not gonna know what we're lacking or what feedback that we need in order to accomplish that goal. So a mentor can help do that for you too. They can push you out of your comfort zone. I mean, some of the hardest feedback or hardest direction that I've ever received from a mentor, one of them was you've got to be your own advocate. That's a hard thing to do. I mean, a lot of people struggle with being your own cheerleader and promoting yourself.
You - kind of feel like you're self sabotaging in some way, right? If you want me to promote myself, I've got to be my own cheerleader. It's a really hard thing for people to do. So having a mentor to push you out there a little bit and make sure that you are being your own champion, you know, they can open the door to the room for you, but you've still got to walk through it. So you need people who are gonna challenge you, push you a little bit.
In my career when I first started, sometimes I would walk into a room where I'd be invited to a meeting and I'd immediately look around and I'd think, my gosh, you know, that's so and so and they've been here forever and that's their title and they've got some experience and this person's in here. Like, what am I doing in the room? You know, one of my mentors once told me that you were invited to the room. So there's a reason that you're in there. Nobody in that room knows everything.
Jennifer (16:29)
And maybe you know something that they don't know. So having those nuggets and situations where you can take that, digest it, and really kind of hold that to your core, you know, will just help you navigate the waters for the rest of your career. You just gotta be really open to hearing the hard things as well.
Katalina (16:45)
I'd love to hear a little bit more. I love that you brought up, first of all, imposter syndrome. And I'd love to hear a little bit more on other ways that it can kind of leach into mentor and mentee relationships.
Jennifer (16:58)
You know, honestly it's still something that I struggle with today. As I progress in my career and as I get a little bit older, it's not as prevalent. You know, sometimes when I walk into a room, I can de-escalate myself and bring myself back to reality that there's a reason I'm in that room. But you know, it's about having a network too. You know, we talk about formal and we talk about informal mentorship. That informal one is the one that helps you prepare to walk into that room, right?
You're constantly asking them for their expertise for support in that item that they are an expert at. So if you continue to engage and continue to educate yourself, the de-escalation of imposter syndrome will eventually come. I can't guarantee that it's always going to go away because like I said, honestly I still struggle with it today, but it is something that I can de-escalate for myself rather quickly these days. And remember there's a reason that I'm in that room.
I might not be ready, but until someone tells me that I'm not ready and the reasons why I'm not ready, then I'm gonna push into that room and pull out my own chair and have a seat at that table. it's just you gotta you gotta be comfortable with the uncomfortable sometimes.
Katalina (18:06)
Yeah. One of the other areas where I picture it kind of leaching in a little bit, because this was at least definitely very true for me when I was first, first starting out in my career, is I might have wanted a mentor here or there. I'd like to talk to somebody about how to get through this. And as somebody was so brand new in their career, I was like, but I have nothing to offer the mentor. Like I felt there was like this imposter syndrome of not being good enough to even ask for a mentor because I'm like, I'm too new. I don't know enough. Why would they want to spend their time working with me? Have you ever come across anything like that?
Jennifer (18:44)
Yeah, absolutely. I agree. And when I first started my career off in the receivables, I felt that same lack of, how do I engage somebody? Are they going to be wasting their time on me? Why would they want to do that? so I was able to start off internally at the agency with mentors teaching me the processes, really digging in, and then asking them for help externally, right?
When it got created within that organization to help introduce me to a mentor that maybe they knew had gone through the same thing or there were things that I wanted to become an expert at. So it's about finding the path of least resistance.
You know, have the confidence or try to gain the confidence, educate yourself on internally who do I have that I'm comfortable with that maybe has some expertise or longevity here that I can can trust to be able to start me off and then ask for their guidance on maybe an external when it starts to get a little bit more in-depth and detail and escalating into a direction where you need kind of an external support.
Katalina (19:44)
Yeah, starting within your company, that internal mentor does feel a lot safer for sure. It also feels like you're like, obviously I have to ask you things because I work directly with you and I don't know how to do it yet. So that does seem like it would be a much more natural progression of a mentorship relationship.
Now I'm really interested to dive in a little bit more into understanding the values behind mentorship. I think it's kind of straightforward what the mentee gets, but let's talk about a little bit more about what the mentor gets or some things that you might get that you didn't expect from a mentorship relationship.
Jennifer (20:20)
Yeah, I think reflection and growth is always something that a mentor strives for. You know, there's a sense of fulfillment when I go to conferences or I go visit clients and there's somebody there that I may have informally mentored. You know, they've come to me and asked me about career challenges or personality challenges, and there's a joy that I get every time that I see them at a conference. You know, it kind of lights me up when I walk into a room and I see their face. There's self-fulfillment but I think too.
We think about mentors as people who are very established and deep in their career, which always isn't true. But for the ones that have a little bit more longevity, you know, sometimes you're in a room where you have no champion in your corner. You are an executive, you know, and you have to be your own champion in that room. And being a mentor of a mentee can help you realize all of the things that you've come through in order to get in that room and have that seat at the table.
So it's the self, the sense of self-re reassurance. It's that imposter syndrome and kicking that down, right? It constantly reminds you that you're a value, you've got value to share. People enjoy you and people come to you and seek you out for your expertise. So I think it's self-fulfilling and it's kind of I love it because it makes me feel so good inside. But I think it also helps you to self-reflect, right?
I've done that, I've been there, I've overcome it, and came out on the other side. bells and whistles and I just wanna continue to push forward. so very much self-fulfilling in pride.
Katalina (21:55)
I love that idea of the perspective it gives you there. Really, I feel like when you're climbing a mountain, you can't always see the mountain. And you just keep looking up the mountain and going, there's so much higher to go. And you forget to look back down and go, Wow, how far I've actually already come and that's exactly what you were talking about right there, is looking back down at a mentee, you're like, my gosh, look at how much I traversed.
How many obstacles I dodged or climbed and overcame to be where I am today, even if I have, you know, further to go on my career path. That perspective is so valuable. and I would say it also just builds deeper relationships on both sides. I feel like I am able to give support to some people who mentor me just as much as they give me support sometimes. Or I'm like, I want to champion you.
Jennifer (22:45)
You got your own personal board of directors, Katalina.
That's what I call your own personal board of directors, right? It's your, it's your informal mentors that you know you can pick up the phone and call and they're gonna be there for you. You've established that relationship by giving back to them too, helping them fulfill, you know, something inside of them to help others and help others maybe not struggle or or go through a process a little bit easier or learn a skill that will help them elevate them in their career.
Katalina (23:13)
Yes. well as we kind of wrap up this conversation, I want to go through some really good steps for somebody who might be looking to have this kind of mentorship relationship. How would they actually get started? Let's talk about some tangible things that somebody can do today or this week just to get started.
Jennifer (23:32)
Absolutely. So the first thing I would suggest is define what the goal or the outcome is that you're seeking, right? What is it that you truly want to accomplish? And then if you've already got an established social network via LinkedIn or through work, you know, engage some of your peers and maybe even bosses within your organization about these are things that I really want to learn, you know, these are things that I aspire to do. Make yourself a little bit uncomfortable. You got to be your own champion and that way you can start thinking about.
Who is the expert or has the experience with this particular track or skill that I want to accomplish? From there, you're going to need to do the outreach. Just connect, right? Hey, I, you know, my name is Jennifer. This is what I'm looking to do.
Your name came up as somebody who might be willing to, you know, walk me through some scenarios and be a mentor in a formal or informal capacity, up to you and if they accept, then you know, set something up with them too formal or or rigid of a program because you really want to create a relationship that you can both be comfortable with and sharing open and honest feedback, even if that's uncomfortable. Then from there, like we said.
You're gonna bring the questions, comments, concerns to the table for your mentor and you to discuss. Your mentor should have no homework. That's all on the mentee. And then keep that dialogue flowing. Make sure that you're getting the feedback loop, you're taking that information, you're digesting it, you're applying it, and then you're bringing back the outcomes to your mentor so that they can help complete the cycle until that goal or that skill has been attained.
Katalina (25:04)
Jennifer, that is a perfect succinct guide. I love that. Anybody listening, if you are looking for this, make sure you jot those steps down, because I think that is absolutely the key to having a successful mentor relationship.
But in addition to those steps, I would say the other key takeaways from what we discussed today.
First and foremost from you, Jennifer, is break the mold of what you originally thought a mentor-mentee relationship looks like. It does not always have to be somebody older mentoring somebody younger. It does not have to be internal. It does not have to be external. There's so many different ways that mentorship can actually show up.
break that mold and with that kind of break that imposter syndrome, have that confidence to say, hey, it doesn't have to look a specific way to have mentorship in my life. The next big takeaway was to set the goal. I know that's also part of the five steps, but I think that that is just so valuable. And it's a little bit a part of that breaking the mold. It doesn't have to be a long-term relationship. Look for that goal. Look for the thing that you are trying to overcome.
Set that in your sights to be able to have a really positive and influential relationship with a mentor to actually have a goalpost that you are trying to reach. what you get out of it as a mentee is you get a map to traverse the forest that you're about to go through or up that mountain that you're gonna climb, you get a map where they're like, Don't fall off that ledge, don't do this, don't do that. They'll help you through it. And for the one who already went through it, you get the perspective of seeing.
Everything that you have done and revival of inspiration and passion for what you've done, how you've come to be where you are today, and even just watching somebody else succeed and being part of your community. And I'm gonna pull in that term that you said before, which I absolutely love: your personal board of directors, making sure you build that on both sides. Everybody should be building that.
personal board of directors because that is such an invaluable set of relationships. And again, it doesn't have to be a specific age. They don't have to always be your mentor. It might be going back and forth. It could be a peer that you're helping one day and they're helping you the next. But it is that group that is championing you and you have to be the most instrumental part of that group. Like you said, like the leader of that board of directors being your own champion. Did I cover everything you said?
Jennifer (27:34)
You did. The career path is typically not straight. It's a winding road. There's ups, there's downs, there's bumps, there's rocks in the road. But when you have a group of people behind you in your corner and they're helping you and they're championing you along, your career path can be a lot easier. The stress, the life can be way more enjoyable. And then when you get to where you want to go, that's when you remember that you need to give back to the others that are behind you and make sure that they're you're pulling them and bringing them along with you.
Katalina (28:01)
So perfectly said. Thank you so much, Jennifer. Your expertise on this has been incredibly valuable. I hope everybody listening has enjoyed this at least half as much as me, because I've just adored this entire episode. Jennifer, thank you again for being on. And I actually hope I can get you on again for something where we can talk a little bit more about this eventually.
Jennifer (28:22)
I'd absolutely love to come back. It's gonna be amazing fun. We are actually gearing up to host an event at NCBA, more to come, but there's not a lot of formal mentor mentee programs in our industry. So I think we've got some exciting news headed into NCBA with a new partnership. So more to come. keep up to date and follow Katalina and we'll make sure you're in the know.
Katalina (28:44)
Yes. Well, thank you so much again, Jennifer. I'm excited to get a little bit more of this information out there about what's coming up for NCBA. But in the meantime, to all of our listeners, thank you so much for joining us today. If you have any questions, please feel free to leave them in the comments below. We will always do our best to get to all of them. Otherwise, we will see you in our next episode. Thanks so much. Bye.
