Katalina Dawson (00:01)

Hello and welcome back to another episode of Career Path. I am your host Katalina. Today we will be discussing Navigating Imposter Syndrome. And I have been so excited about covering this topic for a very long time because back at DCS in 2024, I sat down with the amazing Sara Woggerman and we were just chatting, just chatting and imposter syndrome came up.

And we were just going through like, my gosh, I felt it. And this is what's going on with me. And she naturally started just mentoring me and guiding me through it. And we had this incredible conversation. And I went, my God, Sara, I need you on the podcast to go over this. This is such a great topic that obviously I very much connect to. And I feel like a ton of people would really connect with it. So thank you, Sara, for joining me. I am so excited to have you on today.

Sara Woggerman (00:53)

well, it's my pleasure to be on. That was such a great conversation and it impacts, I think, everybody at some point in their life. So this isn't unique to gender or your walk of life. I think whether it's obvious to other people or not, we've all at some point in time had this feeling like we're not enough or people, you know, we're in a position that we shouldn't be in or I'm a fraud. Right. So.

Katalina Dawson (01:22)

And

now for anybody who doesn't know Sara Woggerman, she is the president and owner at ARM Compliance Business Solutions. She is also an Executive Director at Inside ARM and a Partner at Collection Certifications. And I'm also going to read a little blurb from her bio. It says, "Sarah is deeply committed to fostering a culture of leadership, advancing women into executive roles, and building impact

full mentorship programs that inspire and empower the next generation of leaders." And I had to read that because Sara, think that so embodies you and my relationship at the very least. The way that you have just been so open with me and a mentor from the very beginning and I love it. And that's truly who you are. It's so incredible.

Sara Woggerman (02:00)

Awwww!

Thank you. That's such a nice compliment. I hope that's true for anyone that I've interacted with over the years.

Katalina Dawson (02:20)

Now, can you tell us a little bit more about yourself and how you got to where you are today?

Sara Woggerman (02:25)

Yes, so like many people, I stumbled into this industry and who knew at the time, almost 20 years ago now, that this would be my path. I mean, I certainly didn't know that this would be my path, but I'm so glad it has been. I've worked for very large company, very large publicly traded companies, debt buying companies that...

really sort of set up a foundation within this industry. I was always really fascinated by where I thought the industry could advance and go and the way to think about debt collection and financial services. And so I went from, I was really on the side of performance and operations for probably the first, I'm gonna say the first third part of my career.

And that was my foundation. And then I really took a strong pivot into compliance. And speaking of imposter syndrome, this is such a perfect example of when I pivoted to compliance, the words compliance management system or a chief compliance officer, we're all new to our industry. And so I was really challenging myself at the time to learn what the expectations were, get out of my comfort zone, force myself into a scenario that I didn't know.

and no one else knew. So like it was kind of, it was new to the whole industry. And so it took me a minute and I knew going in, you might fail at this, Sara, right? There's a possibility that this isn't, this isn't the path for you, but it has turned out to be really rewarding for me in a lot of different ways because it helps me bring my experiences full circle and help companies in a very

authentic and unique way of not just compliance, not just operations where I'm blending those two things together. And I love being able to do that. So five years ago now, I started the process of launching my business. August of this year will be our five year anniversary of making the announcement that our doors were open. And it has been

Katalina Dawson (04:44)

Congratulations.

Sara Woggerman (04:46)

It has been a very rewarding journey the last five years. It's been a lot of hard work, but I truly am passionate about this industry and the people in it. And I'm very thankful for the people who trust me with the projects that come our way at ARM Compliance Business Solutions.

Katalina Dawson (05:06)

Well, thank you for sharing that. That's so cool to hear your whole trajectory and your story of falling into the industry, I'm sure is not crazy for most people. That's honestly what I hear all the time. So it happened with me. but I would love to hear a little bit more about your experiences with imposter syndrome. And I am going to happily share some of mine as well. Now you mentioned, about being your own business owner. Did that come with a lot of it as well?

Sara Woggerman (05:09)

No.

First it didn't, so I thought about being a business owner for a long period of time. I thought about what my consulting practice might look like. I thought about some of the initiatives or sort of the visions that I have for very specific elements of it. And so at first, when it was, I would say when it was just me, you're just, so busy doing all of the things and you're only responsible for yourself. Where,

It's interesting is that when you start to add to your team, that's so exciting. You're like, I'm building, I'm getting more clients. I can do this. I can, I can help people make a living. That's such a very rewarding thing. It also adds an immense amount of pressure and that pressure has definitely, there's definitely been days where I just like crack and I go.

Should I be the leader of this company? Like, my gosh, like, my gosh, I'm letting my people down or I'm not doing enough. And was I silly for thinking that this could get bigger and more beyond just me? And the answer is no, right? Like that wasn't a silly thing or vision, but you have those moments where like you just.

I called it the day that I unraveled, right? Like I'm like, ah, you know, like I'm ready to close my doors. You know, I mean, um, and that doesn't happen very often, but that did happen, uh, last year, um, at the end, was fourth quarter and I was just, I did just a lot of stuff just hit me one day and I was like, Oh my gosh, I feel like I'm failing on all fronts. And, and that's when you feel like, I doing, am I doing

Katalina Dawson (06:58)

Yeah!

Sara Woggerman (07:24)

Am I the right person to be leading this? And then the next morning, it's like, you just know, saw one of my consultants had actually drafted an article and was talking about her experience working for the company. And what she said was incredibly moving. She said some very wonderful things about me and the vision of the company and the support of the company.

and her own personal journey. And I thought, well, that was really silly for me to break yesterday. Right? And so like these imposter syndrome moments, sometimes we need to put ourselves in check a little bit. right? Like, and it's, what our own emotions take over. And so not to keep dwelling on that. I love to hear your personal stories.

Katalina Dawson (08:02)

No!

Yeah, so,

my gosh. Well, the one you and I talked about is like me in my current position. And I've spoken about this a couple of times on the podcast, but at this point right now, while we're filming this, which is in January, 2025, that's when we're filming it. I have been in the industry basically one year, cause I was kind of in the industry before, but I came into the industry from a marketing standpoint, from like that.

in marketing, specifically events. So I was doing that for one of the companies, but I was kind of sequestered to like the marketing and events side of things. So I wasn't really learning the industry super well, but when I joined Adam's team, it's been a whole different world. It's like drinking from a fire hose every single day. And it is so much, this is such a complex industry and a difficult industry and

I sit here all the time and while I know that I sit at my desk every day and I give probably 110 % most of the time, I guess your effort fluctuates day to day, but I'm always trying my best. I want to do my best, but then I'll sit here and I'll be like, I don't understand what's going on. I don't know what that means. I don't know what the client wants. I don't know how to write for this client because I don't even know what they do. It doesn't make any sense.

Sara Woggerman (09:28)

Sure.

Katalina Dawson (09:45)

Spiral I'm like, my god, I'm terrible at my job How do I even have this position? Huh? And I just go into this just awful spiral. Like you said though. What did you call it?

Sara Woggerman (09:54)

Yes. I don't even remember what I said, but it is, it's like this death spiral.

It's you go down this, where you unravel or the unraveling, it's like, my gosh. And then it's these emotions that they're coming at you so fast, right? And you just feel like I am not enough for this.

Katalina Dawson (10:15)

Yeah, and it comes from a place, especially in that case of imposter syndrome, because I kind of want to talk about another one that I have too. But in that place, it comes from a, I feel like I have to have everything under control. Like I have to know everything, I have to be the best at it in order to be doing it. It's this perfection thing too. So it's like, you don't have to be the best at everything. You don't have to know everything and everything doesn't have to be perfect.

Sara Woggerman (10:22)

Yeah.

 

correct.

Katalina Dawson (10:43)

But yet for me, it is so hard to relinquish that and just be like, hey, it's okay to ask for help. It's okay to be learning as you go. But it's hard. It's hard to just accept that and let go of that need for perfection and control.

Sara Woggerman (10:48)

Yes, I

have that exact same problem. And when you begin to trust people, especially if you've started, anyone who's started a business, you begin to like trust people with your name and your brand and stuff like that. You have to start to relinquish some of that. Or that's when you become that overwhelmed self and you do start to spiral. And that's not good for your team. It's not good for you. It's not good for the business. Right. And so

Katalina Dawson (11:24)

you

Sara Woggerman (11:30)

as leaders, I think it's really important to know when we have to step away and put our emotions in check. And sometimes we need a timeout. The other thing is know who your people are to call. And I think we should talk about that a little bit more. I think that when I...

Katalina Dawson (11:50)

Now.

Sara Woggerman (11:55)

When I was about to launch my business, or when I had my business concept, I made two phone calls. I talked to, I had dialogue with lots of close friends of mine that I trusted. Like not lots, a handful, a couple. But there were two people that I called with two very specific scenarios. One is a gentleman in the industry that has been a mentor for me for a very long time. And we have established just this amazing

you know, working bond and I just trust his honest feedback about if I'm like crazy. And so I called him and I walked through my business plan. He was like, I think you're asking me if you should do this. And his, his response was great. If you don't do it now, you're never going to do it. This is your perfect opportunity to do it. And then he provided me with such great feedback to like empower me of

how to negotiate the exits and how to launch. And he had these just great third party, non-biased sort of feedback for me. So that's like the person you wanna go to and get straight honest answers. And then I started putting things in motion and I panicked one day. And I called one of my...

Sara Woggerman (13:18)

close girlfriends. It was a newer relationship, but we had had this sort of, we bonded right away. And I said, I just did a thing and I just started panicking. And I just want to tell you about the thing that I just did. And I said, I'm leaving my job. I'm starting my own business. Here's what I'm going to do. And she said to me, my gosh, there's lots of people who might do this and think, and I might think, my gosh, this could be really dangerous for you. She said, but I just know.

that you are going to be so successful in doing this. And it was like exactly what I needed to hear in that moment, to like get out of my own self criticism of, okay, were you a little arrogant when you thought you could do this, right? Like, who do you think you are, Sara? And so knowing who you, knowing your people to call like sort of be your cheerleader is also really critical. So having that tribe of people is really

Katalina Dawson (13:59)

you

Yeah, I want to share kind of another story on that being of also knowing I I don't know how to describe it. So I'm just gonna hop into the story And I guess the way it relates is through the idea of you can always be your own worst critic so that's why you want that like outside perspective and Specifically for me this other area where I tend to get the imposter syndrome is literally

Sara Woggerman (14:21)

Yeah!

Yeah, please!

Katalina Dawson (14:47)

like on this podcast or other moments where you have to get up and talk in front of people, but not just in general, because for anybody who's watched this podcast, somewhat frequently, you've probably heard me say I have a background in acting and, I have no problem getting on stage or getting in front of a camera and playing a character or I've been in improv troops. I have performed as a Disney like rent a princess for kids parties and things like that.

Katalina Dawson (15:15)

I have no problem doing that in front of hundreds of people. It's kind of second nature to me. And I won't even get nervous a lot of the time. So I can be on stage, there's like 500 people. like, this is what I do. This is what gives me energy. I love it. But then I'm sitting here alone in my office with the camera on me, but now I'm talking about me. And there is such a vulnerability.

Sara Woggerman (15:22)

Yeah.

Katalina Dawson (15:43)

that opens up, it's not a performance, it's not playing a character, it's me. And I will get 10 times more nervous sitting here talking than I do playing a character. It's wild. And it comes back to too, like when I go back and I watch myself, sometimes I can end up tearing myself apart. So recently I filmed with Holly Naiman, I love her so much. I thought it was.

Sara Woggerman (15:57)

Yeah?

Yeah, she's such

a lovely lady. Yes.

Katalina Dawson (16:11)

And I was

such a great episode and she said such amazing things and I watched it back and I saw myself on camera get really comfortable because it was Holly and I'm so comfortable with her and I love her But I got comfortable and I got excited and when I get comfortable and excited gosh I start talking with my hands like crazy and I get really animated and I do all these faces and I'm watching it and I'm going my god

Sara Woggerman (16:33)

Yeah.

Katalina Dawson (16:41)

I am so obnoxious and unlikable and like, ugh! And then I did what you should never do to your boyfriend or husband. And the second he got home from work, I went, am I obnoxious? I just put him on the spot like that. It's kind of a different version of what you were saying where it's like you get the outward advice, but like I did it in such the wrong way. I put him on the spot and he was like, I mean, and I was like, okay, okay, hold on, let me be clear.

Sara Woggerman (16:50)

Yeah

Katalina Dawson (17:11)

I don't mean when I'm like singing at the cats or something like that. I know that's obnoxious. You know, that's obnoxious. Even the cats know that's obnoxious. I'm talking about like every day or when I get excited and he was like, I don't know if I should answer the question. So yeah, 100%. So I ended up being like, okay, here's the deal. I explained it. said, I was watching myself back, like editing the video and I was like, cringe. So I show it to him and he's like,

Sara Woggerman (17:13)

You

Right.

Right, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, I'm being set up here. I'm being set up here for real, yeah.

Katalina Dawson (17:40)

What are you talking about? You just look excited. You just look excited and happy. And over here, I'm like, my voice like is too, I need to gentle up my voice. I need to bring down my movements. And he's like, you just look like a person who's excited. And I'm like, okay. So I am being wildly my own worst critic. And I went into a spiral that day. I was like, I need to change my voice. I need to like hold something so I don't move my hand.

Sara Woggerman (17:45)

Yeah!

Katalina Dawson (18:07)

He was like, you are so overreacting. And that was again, that spiral of perfection, but with that caveat of being your own worst critic.

Sara Woggerman (18:16)

Yes. So, I, and I might've told you this before. I will not rewatch videos of myself because I do that to myself. and I learned that what's interesting and what I've learned just because when I started speaking and when I started, doing webinars and during COVID we were on camera all the time.

Sara Woggerman (18:45)

and being on camera rather than speaking at a conference. there's speaking at a conference. actually like speaking at a conference better and people think that's weird, but it's because I can see the audience interacting with me. can see if I'm losing them. I stress out one of the people I love to speak with, but one of my favorite people was Rozanne Anderson. I stress her out all the time when I try to involve the audience. She's like, what if they don't say anything? And I'm like, I just make them. don't know. So, but for me.

I don't love talking at people. I like having a discussion and dialogue. And so when you're doing webinars and you don't see your audience and you're just speaking into a void, which is different than what you and I are doing here today, right? But it is very uncomfortable. I did, I started watching myself and there was a couple of things I could fix like,

Katalina Dawson (19:21)

Yeah!

Sara Woggerman (19:43)

You know, you and I were talking about like where to look at the screen because you're like, okay, like I look over here and it looks really ridiculous. Um, but I say all that to say I stopped doing that. And here's what happened when I stopped being like so worried about that. I started hearing different kinds of feedback. Um, I would hear things like people would come up to me in conferences and they would, they would act like they know me and I would feel really, really bad because, um, I wouldn't know them.

Katalina Dawson (19:49)

Yes.

Yeah, you're like, hi, so great to see you again too!

Sara Woggerman (20:12)

And I'd like, right. And then

they'd go, wait a minute, we've never actually met, but you're so, you are so personable on these webinars that I feel like you were sitting there having a conversation with me. And I thought, well, all the ridiculous faces I make and all of my hand movements and stuff, that actually brings people in. it's me showing up as me. And

Katalina Dawson (20:28)

you

Sara Woggerman (20:40)

When you realize that the narrative that you have created in your own mind is actually what takes away from you showing up as your most authentic self, then you could kind of self correct and go: you know what? I'm not going to rewatch this because it's not going to help my inner thought process. Like I know that I showed up to Career Path with Katalina, my most authentic self, right? And I was

honest and speaking, wasn't being a character, I wasn't trying to be something I wasn't. I showed up today as my most authentic self. And that's good enough. And I think when we compare ourselves to other people, we think someone else is maybe doing something better than us, those are the things that feed into that imposter syndrome and that will create the spiral for you.

Sara Woggerman (21:38)

and trying to set yourself up for unrealistic expectations will also do that.

Katalina Dawson (21:44)

And you make such a good point there because like when I first started this podcast and I started rewatching myself, I did learn a lot of good tips about just producing a good podcast. Like I realized that what I felt were small movements in my chair, this is a very tiny movement. It looks very big. And so like I'd see myself and I'd be like, my gosh, don't swivel your chair in the middle of the podcast. You're gonna make somebody sick. Or like you and I said, you glance at notes that are

Sara Woggerman (21:55)

Okay.

Alright!

Katalina Dawson (22:13)

So close to the camera, but now I look like I'm looking over here So knowing your eye lines so there's a difference between those basic like how to produce a good product things versus me going I have an obnoxious voice and I look terrible and all the things that are I guess not constructive

Sara Woggerman (22:17)

Yes, yes, yeah.

Yes, yes.

That's

a great way to say it. Yes. They're not adding, they're not, they're not helping you. Yes.

Katalina Dawson (22:41)

It was

more just tearing myself down instead of just being like, stop swiveling your chair.

Sara Woggerman (22:48)

Right. And then if you start

to strip like who you are and what makes you special and what makes people want to listen and come and listen to what you have to say, then then you're just another person with a podcast. Right. Like, like what makes you unique is that you get to is those things that you might think are overly big or overly obnoxious. think that's what makes you

a great person to want to know, right? Like I think that's wonderful. People don't want to come and listen to a monotone boring person who never moves. Like they just, yeah, they don't, they don't.

Katalina Dawson (23:27)

Rue, That's

such a great point. Thank you. So let's talk a little bit about then like what overcoming that imposter syndrome can really end up doing for you and like different ways to combat it even better.

Sara Woggerman (23:45)

Yeah, so I think the first thing is we need to correct that inner voice that is trying to tear us down, right? We need to be very conscientious when it's happening. And I think there's a lot more education around this than probably when I was much younger, right? There's a...

I don't know that imposter syndrome was even a term I would have ever heard in my early twenties. Like for example, but you know, when we recognize it and I have had, I have had phone calls and I love it when I am having a case of imposter syndrome, Sara, talk me through it. Like here's, here's what, here's what's triggering me today. And I just need someone to talk me through it. Right. I actually love it when I get those calls. I love when people trust me with that type of stuff.

But knowing, recognizing it. And I do think depending on where you are with your own emotional in tune-ness of yourself, you may or may not recognize that you're going through it. I see it surprisingly, I see it, I shouldn't say surprisingly. What might be surprising to our audience is that I see this actually in my male cohorts

quite a bit and they don't necessarily recognize it. feel like females oftentimes, women will oftentimes be self-aware of it and they might not know what to do with it. They know that they're doing it to themselves, but sometimes our male colleagues don't know they're doing it to themselves. And so there have been times when I have said, you know that you are suffering right now from imposter syndrome. And by simply saying that those words,

Sara Woggerman (25:35)

they can go, wait, what? And they can start to reflect because, know, again.

Katalina Dawson (25:42)

that's step

one, recognizing that you have a problem and like being able to go, okay, this is what it is this now I need to take the next

Sara Woggerman (25:45)

Correct. Yes. Yes. This is what it is. You continue

to compare yourself to this person who held this job previously or is doing it this way and you think you're not enough. You have been, you are being entrusted by your leadership team to do this role because they believe that you can, which means you can and you need to make it your own.

and the way you make it your own is, you know, here's let's talk about that. Like, so there are it's and when when a third party tells you that it's I think it's actually really helpful. So one thing I would say to leadership out there since is that when you see someone who is struggling and I try to and I always worry when I do this because I don't want to ever offend anyone. Right. But luckily, I don't think I've ever offended. Most people have thanked me after the fact.

Thank you for pointing that out. I needed to hear that and it helped me do X. But I think we need to be coaching and mentoring our folks and our teams to recognize that and how to overcome it. And it's to stop the voice or you know what, if you need a third party, you need that like voice check, phone a friend, right?

Katalina Dawson (27:08)

Yeah.

Sara Woggerman (27:11)

you know, say this is what I'm going through right now and I don't know if it's really warranted or not, or I don't know what to do with this feeling that I'm feeling. And sometimes all you need is to put a plan into action.

Katalina Dawson (27:20)

Yeah.

Mmm, that's a good point. So step one, obviously: recognizing that you have the problem recognizing that it is indeed imposter syndrome so that you can combat it correctly Second you can check in with a third party Actually, I would argue second would probably be

Noticing where it's coming from trying to figure out is it a sense of perfection? Is it a sense of control? Is it a sense of I am being my own worst critic? Which I think are probably based on what we said the main three pillars either you feel like you have to have control over everything you feel like everything has to be perfect or You're just tearing yourself apart. Where is coming from? recognizing that

Sara Woggerman (27:45)

Yeah!.

Yep.

Katalina Dawson (28:08)

And then you can check in with a third party. You can try to combat that inner speech. And I heard a great quote recently, and I have no idea who it's from. It wasn't like given a name to it or something, but it's somebody said, like, I have no idea what I'm doing. And the other person said, nobody knows what they're doing. Everybody's first time, being alive.

Sara Woggerman (28:30)

Right, right.

Katalina Dawson (28:32)

All our first time being alive, we're all figuring it out as we go. And I was like, that's great way of putting it. It may not be first time in a company or your first time in the industry, but it is everybody's first time being alive. And we're all trying our best.

Sara Woggerman (28:35)

Yes. Yes. It's so great.

Yeah, we're all showing up

and we're all trying to bring our best selves, right? And we're not perfect. And that's the other thing, lean into not being perfect. That is also that this, I'm a, I've always been a perfectionist and I am trying to, in this stage of my life, sort of lean into my imperfections, right? When I goof like, one, because I also recognize that there might be people who,

Katalina Dawson (28:52)

We're not perfect.

Me too.

Sara Woggerman (29:15)

look up and I think social media has done a thing where everyone looks perfect and you start to compare yourself. And in my own personal effort, whether it's LinkedIn, whether it's Facebook, whatever you do, right? You start to look at people and you go, they seem to have this picture perfect life or they have the perfect marriage or they've got the best job or other jobs. I have become more or I am embracing more of saying like, no,

Katalina Dawson (29:22)

great point.

Sara Woggerman (29:43)

There's like some messiness there. Like, because it makes me a real person and we don't have to show up perfect. We don't have to show up with our makeup done perfectly and our hair always perfect. Like, we don't have to. I mean, that speaks more to women, but like we don't have to always put on a...

Katalina Dawson (30:04)

Put on a show or a mask or whatever you need.

Sara Woggerman (30:05)

A shell, a show, a shell, a mask.

you know what? Today, today I'm having a rough day. It's okay. Um, and I want, I want people to show up for me like that. And I, which means I need to show up like that to them and just be, be able to be vulnerable. It doesn't mean you share your whole life story and you get on a podcast and you whine about stuff. Right. But it's like, you know, like, like my story at the beginning of this, like,

Katalina Dawson (30:11)

Yeah.

Sara Woggerman (30:32)

I had a whole day where I just thought I was failing at everything. was like ready to shut, like it was so dramatic. And I had to laugh about it the next day. And so I made a point when I saw Adam at DCS, it was before DCS of last year. So before you and I had our conversation, I shared it with Adam. I said, I had a complete meltdown two weeks ago. Like you would have thought that it was the end of the world.

And you know what he said to me? He said, welcome to being a small business owner, Sara. And I'm like, yeah, we all have those days. Like, like I don't have them very often, but you would have thought something really dramatic had happened because of the way I was responding that particular day. And yeah.

Katalina Dawson (31:05)

Yeah.

Yeah, and it's hard to change it, being a perfectionist yourself, me too, it's like hard to accept that I'm not perfect and I'm not going to be, and it's gonna be a long process, there's never gonna be.

of a flip switch where it's like, just accept that everything's not perfect. I've been working on this for, I'd say I recognized it maybe a year and a half ago, maybe even sooner than that. And I've been actively working on it and reminding myself a couple of things. Like there's a quote from Gary V that says like, wake up every day knowing that you're going to mess up.

Sara Woggerman (31:26)

No.

Katalina Dawson (31:47)

And

that releases some of the power that messing up and that fear of failure has for you. And then Susan Richards, who I'm sure you know from the industry too, I love her. And she wrote this incredible LinkedIn post pretty recently about some lessons she's learned in her life. And I jotted down some of the quotes she said, because I love them so much. And I stuck them on my computer right here to remind myself.

Sara Woggerman (31:55)

that's awesome! Good!

Katalina Dawson (32:11)

And the first one is: "If you fall, fall forward." And I try to think about that. It's like, you're going to mess up. It's OK. Just make sure that when you fall, you fall forward. You learn from it. And it's a process. It's hard to let go of that perfectionism that can cause the imposter syndrome. But as long as you know that there's a problem, and you're working on it, and you practice it, hopefully one day we'll get there. Hopefully.

Sara Woggerman (32:24)

Guess.

Yes, yes,

and we should, I remember, I remember when it was in this industry and it was at the first company I worked for in this industry. And I remember someone, they were talking about a boss and they said, he allows me to fall. No, he allows me to fail so that I can learn. So.

And I remember that stuck with me. mean, I was like 20 years ago and I remember thinking that is exactly how leaders should be. Like not so that it screws up the whole company, but you've got to kind of allow people to, to, to stumble because that is how they learn. Right. And so that was a leadership thing that then I started watching about this individual. And I was like, that's kind of leader I want to be. Right. Is I want to allow people to stumble and fail enough so that they go,

Katalina Dawson (33:15)

Yeah.

Right.

Sara Woggerman (33:35)

okay, that's why we don't do it that way or that's, know, so, and we need to remember that for ourselves as well.

Katalina Dawson (33:44)

Truly, and I am

so, so, so lucky and grateful to have a leader today who operates on that philosophy. Adam has told me before, he's like, I give you permission to stumble, to make mistakes, to fail and learn from it as long as you're able to like fall, but fall forward. And he even admits he's like, I make mistakes. I...

Sara Woggerman (34:02)

Yes.

Katalina Dawson (34:05)

I think this is the first leader that I've had that has ever looked me in the eye and said like, have permission to fail as long as you get back up. And I was like, my God, what a game changer that was to hear, like you said before, from a third party. But now I got to try to embody it myself too.

Sara Woggerman (34:18)

Yes!

Katalina Dawson (34:23)

As we wrap this up, can we talk a little bit about how you get to a place where you can embody a successful version of yourself and kind of eliminate that imposter? Because you had a great thing you told me about before and I think we should really cover it.

Sara Woggerman (34:39)

Is it the Ted Lasso clip?

So I hope those of you who are listening or watching, I hope you're all fans of Ted Lasso. And if you're not, or you haven't watched it, you really should, because it's phenomenal. But there is this dialogue and it is two women. It's Rebecca and Keely. And Rebecca is a very high powered woman. She is a very successful, high powered. She runs

Well, we would say soccer, but over there it's, it's, it's football. and she, she runs a, she's the manager of the program and, she is the only female amongst all the other, football, soccer managers. And she said when she would feel insecure, she would make herself really big and she just, and she'd make her, she'd make this monster face, right? And she would look in the mirror and she'd make this monster face.

and she would take this deep breath in and she would do this weird kind of scream and then she would just release it and then she'd walk into our meeting with you know all these other powerful men who she felt were looking down on her thought she didn't deserve the position that she was in right and they all and there's this great quote of the lady she's saying this to that said my gosh you're so badass you're amazing like you know and so

Katalina Dawson (35:54)

Yes.

Yes!

Sara Woggerman (36:04)

let's invade France. think she says or something. It's funny. There's a joke, right? But, cause it's a very funny, it's very like dark humor, great uplifting show, but it's whatever you have to do to sort of overcome and bring your own confidence. Right. And so that was kind of a silly, but really meaningful clip from that show. And, if you, if you don't know what I'm talking about, go check it out. You can, you can Google it, but it is.

we all have our things, right? And so before I speak on a panel, if it's a subject area that I'm, if it's material that is really detailed and legal stuff, like I used to over prepare, I don't over prepare anymore. but I, there is like kind of a ritual of that I go through personally of just, know, you got this, you know, your material, you know what you're talking about. Like,

You know, there are, there are certain things that will work and you kind of have to figure out what works for you. Um, and that might be like, you know, like I think Taylor Swift talks about like the things she does before she does her show, like, you know, and, and like, that's what people do. People who are doing shows or people who are, um, showing up in, um, roles where the spotlight's on them. That is you, you gotta, you gotta sometimes take yourself up and that's okay. Find out what works for you.

Katalina Dawson (37:08)

Yeah.

Yeah, and I love

100 % and I love in the clip you sent me of this if I'm not mistaken She walks up to the mirror after she had that interaction with the other guys I think it was a compilation of her doing it basically But she looks in the mirror and it's not exactly her there It's the childhood version of her the little girl looking back up at her and that's when she's able to like bring it up and do that like bear roar

Sara Woggerman (37:44)

Yes.

Yeah.

Katalina Dawson (37:59)

And I think that was such a great moment, encapsulating what you were just saying about like finding what it is for you. And in that moment, I was like, my God, she's doing it. She's doing it for that little girl. Finding whatever that that passion is, whatever is lighting the light that makes you want to do whatever it is you're pursuing that you have that imposter syndrome for.

Sara Woggerman (38:02)

Yeah.

She's doing it for the inner child of her that wanted to, that yes, the inner child, yes.

Katalina Dawson (38:26)

Finding that and supporting that might be the key to finding whatever you need to help overcome that imposter syndrome. For her, it was doing it for the little version of her and it was so cool.

Sara Woggerman (38:32)

Correct. Yes.

Yes.

Yeah, no, I mean, when I think about it, gives me like goosebumps and it makes me feel like.

Katalina Dawson (38:42)

which

I was even thinking about because there's a couple of things that I wanted to do for little girl me who like never got a chance to or whatever. It made me want to cry. I was like, my God. And today as an adult, I'm trying to do things for little girl me that I was never able to do. like, it's huge. Yeah.

Sara Woggerman (39:01)

that's, that's, I love that. But we, we're all doing that, right? And, and we're all still growing and I think we can all continue to support each other. And this is an important topic to recognize. And it will help you show up in your most confident, but also most authentic self. And I think that's what we all.

ultimately want to be, right? And so, and that's what draws people to us. It's also what keeps people that maybe aren't meant for us away when we're authentic, right? So it's going to draw in the people who are meant to be part of your life. and to be part of your, that's something that again, I'll tell you something, if you haven't hit 40, after 40, you reflect differently on things. I'm just going to say that. But one of the things is that's been really powerful for me is that

I'm okay with what's not meant for me. I'm okay with what is not everybody has to like me, right? I'm just, showing up and I'm being my truest version of myself. And I'm okay with that. And So that is, those would be my last words that I would say is keep working. All we can do is work on ourselves, show up to be our best selves and

and do whatever you can to combat that voice in your head that wants to be your critic.

Katalina Dawson (40:30)

Absolutely. Sara, this has been such an incredible discussion. Thank you so much. I feel like I've learned so much. I've been able to open up and relax and just have such an incredible conversation with you. And gosh, you're the way you share is just incredible. Truly. You make me feel.

Sara Woggerman (40:52)

Thank you.

Katalina Dawson (40:53)

Like not only is this more comprehensive now, but that it is something that I can tackle and I hope other people feel the same way once we broke this down and that's all thanks to you. So thank you so much.

Sara Woggerman (41:05)

well, thank you for having me. I'm honored to talk on this subject. I'm not an expert. We're all learning every day. I have to do it with myself, right? But it's something that I aspire to keep doing better at. So thanks again for having me. It's an honor to be here.

Katalina Dawson (41:23)

Truly my pleasure and if anybody doesn't know Sara wants to connect with her, find her on LinkedIn. She's truly an incredible person. Otherwise, I want to thank you guys for joining us today on Career Path and we will see you all in the next episode. Bye.

My mouse went to sleep. There we go.