Katalina (00:00.957)

Hello and welcome back to another episode of Career Path. I am your host Catalina. Today we will be discussing rolling with the punches and here with me to discuss that I have Liz Terry. Liz is the executive director of the National Creditors Bar Association, also known as NCBA. Liz, thank you so much for joining me today. I am so excited to have you on. Thank you. Would you like to tell everybody a little bit about yourself and how you got to where you are today?

Liz Terry (00:22.114)

Thanks, Kat. Nice to see you.

Liz Terry (00:31.05)

Sure, I guess, unlike maybe some of the friends you have or any of us know that person who in kindergarten said they were going to be a doctor and then indeed became a doctor. That was not me. I had and probably still have no idea what I want to be when I grow up. And so that meant that I sought out jobs that interested me, something that was how to challenge to it or where I felt there was a learning opportunity. and a growth opportunity. So I definitely had a wide range of jobs before I landed here. There's some consistencies and a lot of maybe steps that you don't expect to take as you kick off a career post -college.

Katalina (01:20.773)

Absolutely. So when you and I discussed this topic initially, one of the first things you brought up to me is the idea of going backwards to move forwards, which I think is very compelling. So I'd love to hear you talk a little bit about that.

Liz Terry (01:34.89)

Absolutely. the, the first, I, you know, I had a couple stints in finance and even taught for a couple of months, but the first job I really held onto and I would still say today was my favorite job ever. I was there for six years and I ran the Tawaratan award, which is the Heisman Trophy for lacrosse. I was the sole employee and I had a board of directors that I reported to. I got to get my feet wet in so many different areas from marketing to selling sponsorship to event planning to stuffing envelopes and sending out invitations and managing parents and etc. So in so many ways that job gave me a feel for what it would be like to run a business, albeit a very small business. I think where we talked about going backwards to move forwards is when I realized there really wasn't a growth opportunity beyond what I'd already learned in six years. I really had to move on and it was really hard to translate how I ran a small business. I knew a lot, the volume was so low that I couldn't quite translate that to bigger roles at bigger companies. So I ended up taking what would essentially be an entry level job after six years of running my own business essentially. It was a non -profit. Anyway, so I went backwards, back to square one essentially. I started in the trade association space and grew really quickly. I had all the tools. I just needed to demonstrate that I could do those jobs in a much higher volume than I had previously. And from there, I pretty quickly kept getting recruited or moving up from entry level to running a department to then executive committee and now running the organization again. So this time a bigger organization, obviously. But the past getting there, was humbling and then also really rewarding to

Katalina (04:00.689)

it.

Liz Terry (04:02.2)

show everyone that yes, I could do this all along. Could have given me a bigger job from the start, but I proved myself and feel good that I was able to start at running an organization and now running a bigger organization. was an interesting path to where I am today.

Katalina (04:05.629)

Yeah.

Katalina (04:20.731)

Really, that is incredible. I love the idea that you really did earn it. I feel like there's so much satisfaction to that. You could have done it and you still took that humbling step to just prove yourself each step of the way. So that's really cool. Now, how do you deal with things that there's certain amount of things that are in control that wasn't in your control to take that step back and build yourself back up? But what about when the world throws you a curve ball and you can't see it coming, you can't necessarily control it. How do you deal with those types of challenges?

Liz Terry (04:51.566)

Yeah.

Liz Terry (04:57.506)

Yeah, it's interesting. It turns out I have a bit of an unflappable personality in in the sense that I tend to get calm in a chaotic situation and I'm able to step back and think through what are the options instead of sort of fixating on what can't we do anymore. So for example, I finally made it back to running the organization in October of 2019. And so it was a brand new industry for me. I had a lot of learning to do to get up to speed and manage this organization. And within four months, it was COVID. And all of a sudden, all the revenue sources, AKA events, were being canceled. And we had to figure out well, what can we do? What can we preserve and how can we make a path forward? We were lucky that we had reserves, so that did give us a bit of a backup, but we also were creative in how we went about it. My team was really dedicated and I'm very grateful to them, each one of them in their own way. gave back to the organization in that time period, whether it was going on leave to help with our payroll, or taking a pay cut, or making a contribution, working beyond the hours, everything everyone that you can imagine we all did in order to keep the engine running, so to speak. And we were able to actually even hold an event towards the end of 2020.

Katalina (06:48.083)

home.

Liz Terry (06:48.81)

It wasn't our usual, we had to pivot pretty significantly and we made it an owners conference. We were aiming for about a hundred people and the thought there was an owner of the organization can choose to travel in COVID or choose not to and that's on them. It takes the pressure off anyone sort of forcing or encouraging or otherwise having an employee be at risk. They make the decision for themselves. And it turned out to be an event that we have recreated that was really well received and we've recreated to make it annual. So, I mean, it worked. It didn't have to work. It did in this case, but we were pretty, it was a risk to take, but we were really pleased with the outcome of it. And it gave us that little bit of extra income to help us bridge that year that was chaotic. And as we all know, no one planned for or was ready for what happened then.

Katalina (07:23.482)

Great.

Katalina (07:47.667)

100%. Yeah. So it sounds like there was three key things there that I picked up on that you said. So one being having a sense of preparedness, even if you don't know what's to come. You said you guys did have reserves. That's kind of a, hey, just in case anything happens, we don't know what, but having that reserves, being prepared in some sort of way, even like in personal lives, know, finance wise, everybody says has that let have that like six month emergency fund.

Liz Terry (08:13.934)

Emergency. Yeah.

Katalina (08:15.385)

Exactly. Yes. So having some sort of preparedness. The other things were the flexing your creativity muscles, trying to figure out different things and just really diving into different possibilities that you maybe haven't thought of before. And the last one was that kind of leveraging your team and being that team player to help everybody through. That might've been harder when you were like a one woman show, but once you got around and you had that big team around you,

Liz Terry (08:41.086)

Yeah.

Katalina (08:44.839)

I think that's a great way to kind of roll with those punches is leverage your team, be that team player. So kind of speaking of a team, I know a challenge that a ton of people face that makes you kind of have to roll with the punches can be a challenging boss. Have you ever had a really challenging boss? And if so, like how did you deal with that?

Liz Terry (08:48.372)

Yeah, absolutely.

Liz Terry (09:08.29)

Yeah, I think there's multiple types of challenging bosses, right? So you have a boss who's just difficult and that's one, but there's a boss that you respect as a person, but don't agree with their business decisions and having to suck it up and go along with that, you know, with their leadership, you have to be willing to step in. can do what you want. or what you can to encourage what you think should happen, but in the end you're not the decision maker. So I think there's a number of different ways you can think about it. I did have a boss who was, I would say, quirky, like incredibly smart. I've learned more from him than any other boss I ever had, but he would say things, he would have weird policies. If you're on an airplane, you're not allowed to sit next to him. If you're on a train, you have to sit next to him. You know, these are weird, quirky. things that you can't explain to anyone else. And then not to mention, if you're flying to the east, you have to, he wants to be sure he's sitting in the A seat. If he's flying to the west, he wants to sit in the F seat. He has to watch the weather out the window in case it should be coming to get the plane. I mean, crazy things to most of us. And yet, if I could sit through some of the crazy, in the end, the opportunities and what I learned from him.

Katalina (10:02.895)

Yeah, very weird.

Katalina (10:22.419)

You're welcome.

Liz Terry (10:32.326)

are invaluable. you know, everything he, he taught me how, you know, to say hello to absolutely everyone. You never know who's around, you know, he, he made friends with the doorman and every building we walked into. He made friends with the elevator attendant. If there, you know, there usually was one in some of the security buildings we were going into. And, know, he just was, charismatic in that way and it made everyone around him feel comfortable. And that was something I wouldn't have naturally done in my own skin. All the way to handling tough situations, making sure you thank absolutely everyone, handwritten notes, even in 2024, make a difference. And that's something that has made a difference in my career path and helped me grow and move up the chain. The other boss, and I would say, the boss that doesn't really have the business instincts and you feel like they're making a mistake. That was really hard to watch and not sort of be aggressive in front of, you know, or push them. You know, it wasn't my job to push my boss, so I had to be strategic about it and careful about it and not offend anyone and yet.

I think that that was something to learn too, is that the people around you don't always think the way you think, don't always move as quickly as I move. And so how can you adjust to make everyone or anyone be comfortable where they are and also potentially share some ways for growth?

Katalina (12:17.021)

Hmm. So I love that, like accepting that not everybody's going to be the same or not everybody's going to see things the way you see them. And the other one was kind of like a find the silver lining in the storm. Not necessarily that a bad boss can be a storm, but that's kind of more of an analogy. So finding it may be a difficult situation, but where are the opportunities within this situation? So very great ways to look at it. Now, like what

Liz Terry (12:40.376)

Yeah, that's a good input.

Katalina (12:44.355)

are different strategies or mindsets. Those were kind of some of the mindsets, like looking for the opportunity. Are there any other strategies and mindsets that you find most effective when facing any sudden changes or setbacks?

Liz Terry (12:59.342)

I don't know about changes and setbacks as much as I would say that one thing I've always thought is don't be afraid to fail. Try something new, move quickly enough that even when it does, if it's not gonna work, then move on. I think also just the ability to pivot, the ability to say, let's not just charge down this road because we said we were going to charge down this road. If this is not the right road for us to be on, then let's find a path. elsewhere and not just charge ahead because that's where we thought we were going. I think sometimes that takes some guts to say like, this isn't that I told you we were this is what we needed to do. And I was sure of it, but I'm now sure we're not, you know, and that that can be a little bit. It can be humbling, as we talked about earlier. It can be also can just be hard to admit when you make a mistake. But far better to make the mistake quickly and pivot quickly rather than just charge ahead.

Katalina (14:04.755)

Are you familiar with Gary V?

Liz Terry (14:07.8)

Gary Vee, like the basketball coach? No, I'm no. I was thinking of somebody else.

Katalina (14:08.923)

Yes.

Katalina (14:12.765)

I didn't know there was a basketball coach in here. I think his last, I'm going to butcher his last name. Probably it's like Vaynerchuk or something like that. He's an entrepreneur and a leader. Okay. Yeah. He has a quote that I love. And I feel like I recently shared it on LinkedIn, that speaks to exactly what you just said. It was something like the best way to, face failure or messing up is waking up every day, just knowing and accepting you're gonna mess up.

Liz Terry (14:24.238)

yes, I do know who you're talking about, yes.

Liz Terry (14:45.208)

Yeah.

Katalina (14:45.703)

Don't be afraid of that failure because you have to mess up to learn and move forward. So like just fully accepting, I'm going to mess up and that's okay. It's harder to do in practice, but it's a great quote to keep in mind and like try to live it.

Liz Terry (14:54.157)

Yeah.

Liz Terry (15:00.238)

Totally, yep. And that's even more important to have a good team behind you. know, I remember this time our flights, my old, one of my old bosses, the one that's a little quirky on travel, doesn't like to sleep in any bed but his own. If we can, we did all our trips in a day. So we'd fly out at five in the morning and we'd fly back at nine at night and we'd cram in as many things as we could in whatever city. So this one time we were going to Atlanta.

And we were on the first flight out of DCA to Atlanta and I walked out in, you know, half awake. I think we had the right outfit on, but I left the bag of all the handouts that we were going to be using in our meetings in my house. And so I got to the airport and realized it. So, you know, I, I admitted to him, I said, look, it's early. I'm Apparently half asleep and forgot the whole bag. So here's what I've done so far. I've called Casey who is was my you know direct report at the time and Partner in crime and making sure we did everything we could to be prepared for every meeting She was able to immediately email my boss and I the materials we needed to prep on the plane So we had that then in the meantime, she found a kinkos or somebody staples whatever and had not quite as fancy, pretty of a handout, but she was able to get it done such that we could, on our way to our first meeting at 8 a we stopped at Kinko's, picked up the materials, and kept going. And they, you know, we made it work. It was not perfect, but, you know, those things happen, I guess.

Katalina (16:47.986)

Yeah.

Katalina (16:51.635)

Yeah, problem solved. Don't panic. I had a very similar situation earlier this year. I went to leave my neighborhood now where I live currently. And this is actually probably my last time filming with this set because I'm about to move across country back home to Chicago. And I'm stoked. But where I live currently is a small town in the middle of the desert in Arizona. And there is one road in and out of this town. So I got up super early. It was like, you know, 5 a whatever. I'm getting up ready for my flight and

Liz Terry (16:53.568)

Yeah.

Liz Terry (17:06.252)

awesome.

Katalina (17:20.327)

think it was actually even earlier, because I remember going, how is the traffic this bad? I could not get out of my neighborhood for over an hour. It was bizarre. I was like, what is happening? So I'm looking it up on my phone. There is an accident right at the edge of town on the one road in and out, and it has blocked everything. And so I was literally in my neighborhood in my car back to back for over an hour.

Liz Terry (17:39.418)

Katalina (17:47.767)

And I just called my boss and was like, Hey, just want you to know this is happening. I am missing my flight at this point. There's no way I'm making it. And he's like, just problem solve. said, yep, I already found a couple of flights. just want you to know I'm definitely going to be late, but I'm figuring out a flight right now. So sitting there in the car in that little traffic lock, I canceled my flight, booked another flight and happened to make it to Vegas. just in time for like dinner and things that evening at the conference.

Liz Terry (17:55.47)

Yeah.

Liz Terry (18:14.187)

guys.

Katalina (18:15.599)

Made it happen, just had to problem solve and not panic. There was a little bit panic, let's be honest. So how do you balance staying adaptable and always rolling with the punches, but also not losing focus of a main or long -term goal and not rolling off into sidetracks?

Liz Terry (18:20.856)

Yep, yep, yep, I'm with you. That's awesome.

Liz Terry (18:32.846)

down.

Liz Terry (18:39.468)

I I don't necessarily think that having, you can still get from point A to point B, but you can do it in a different path than you expected. Kind of like my career path. I never expected to go backwards, to go forwards. I never expected to end up in trade association space at all or in finance related trade association space. And I think if my goal, was to get back to running an organization and I didn't know what kind of organization, it's a different one than the first time. think just knowing what it is, making sure that you keep what you want in front of you and make sure that the decisions and the side steps you take are still at least heading you in the right direction, whether it's personal or professional goals. think that you have to make decisions that are at least advancing even if it's one step instead of the 10 you hope to take all at once.

Katalina (19:43.475)

Yeah. Well, Liz, unfortunately, that is all the time we have today. But I want to thank you so much for being my guest today. It was fantastic to hear from you, hear your personal stories and your expertise. So thank you.

Liz Terry (19:53.538)

Yeah. Yeah. Thank you, Kat. It fun.

Katalina (19:57.011)

My pleasure to have you and to our listeners if you have any questions comments or topics you would like to see us discuss Please leave them in the comments down below. We will try our best to get to all of them But thank you everybody for joining us today and we look forward to seeing you again in our next episode