Katalina Dawson (00:00.726)

Hello and welcome back to another episode of Career Path. I am your host, Catalina. Today we will be discussing how self-reflection fuels success. And I have somebody very special with me today. This is the incredible Holly Naiman and I look up to her so much. She's an incredible, incredible human being. Holly, thank you so much for being on with me today. I am so so happy. Yes, truly. I look up to you a ton. I think you're just an incredible person. You're so sweet. You're so personable.

Holly Naiman (00:20.622)

Thank you for having me. That was very sweet.

Katalina Dawson (00:30.554)

and you have a really interesting past about what you've done. now for people who don't know Holly, she is not exactly in the industry, but she also is in the industry. So she's married to Mark Neyman who runs both CRS and DCS two of the biggest industry events. And Holly is so important to those events running smoothly and running it off. You may be behind the scenes, but you are so.

Holly Naiman (00:55.716)

Yes, it's a labor of love.

Katalina Dawson (00:59.786)

Yes, it is for sure. So you have a lot in your past of what you've done in your career and you do a very different thing today. So can you tell us a little bit about yourself, about that transition and how you got to where you are today?

Holly Naiman (01:15.396)

So I started working when I was 14 at a restaurant for some good family friends of ours and they said, hey, we're opening at a restaurant. Do you want to come work for us? And I was like, yes. And they showed up to work my first day of work and they said, here's a bucket of paint, some paint brushes, paint all these walls. We open in two weeks. And I was like, this, thanks. But I stayed with them all the way through. worked there for over

I worked there for 27 years. And in that time, I went from a little hostess to, you know, a waiter to a bartender to a bar back. I basically did every position there and then eventually was managing it. And I did go to college and then decided I didn't actually went to college for nursing, but I didn't take that path. went back into the restaurant industry. They of course were so gracious to let me come right back in. And I

Katalina Dawson (02:11.51)

What made you decide to switch on to nursing? I didn't know you went to college for nursing. That's awful.

Holly Naiman (02:13.55)

Pardon me?

Holly Naiman (02:17.928)

yeah, yeah, so I went all the way through college to finish everything and then could not pass my state boards. That is when I was like, okay, maybe this is not for me. Yeah, I took them four times and failed them all. It's okay, yeah.

Katalina Dawson (02:26.166)

Yeah.

Katalina Dawson (02:31.25)

no! Okay, maybe that really is one of those moments. You're like, all right, maybe not for me. Fair.

Holly Naiman (02:38.468)

Yeah. So yeah, there it goes to show like you can fail at something and still be successful. I mean, for real, I didn't let it bring me down. But anyway, I went back to the restaurant and loved it and managing people was something that I found a great passion for, which

is to me it's so special. It's not just managing people, it's managing relationships. And I think that I've learned so much in the restaurant industry that it just carries over to whatever industry you're in. So fast forward to Mark and I get married and he's been in the accounts receivables industry forever. Then we got married and then we had kids and I decided to be a stay at home mom at that point. And then.

Katalina Dawson (03:12.566)

I'm gonna go sad.

Holly Naiman (03:28.034)

just started going to conferences with Mark and supporting him as much as I could. So I have been part of accounts receivables for the better half of a decade and a half or so, attending conferences and building relationships with people and really learning the industry. And I find it interesting because nobody goes into this industry like I want to, I want to be in accounts receivables industry when I grow up. Everyone has found themselves here in unique ways, which is really great conversations to have.

Katalina Dawson (03:39.392)

Yeah.

Holly Naiman (03:58.044)

but having said that, that is how I ended up here. but going back to working at the restaurant and being with people and learning how to manage, it was, I learned so many wonderful things, thankfully from the owners of that restaurant who sent me to a few courses about management and personal reflection and things like that. And it was great when Mark, you know, had many, many employees, he would.

Katalina Dawson (04:06.826)

Yeah.

Holly Naiman (04:26.008)

talked to me about some of them, which was rare because he was, I always called him a FBI agent because he would come home and tell me nothing about work or about anybody. But sometimes he would talk about, I'm having this breakdown with an employee and I don't know what to do. And I would say, well, have you had this conversation with them or that conversation? And he's like, no, it doesn't work like that. And I'm like, it does though, because it's not about restaurant or office. It's literally about human behavior. So.

Katalina Dawson (04:52.022)

Yeah, what we're talking about is tapping into the emotional intelligence of people. So it's not one industry alone. And when you and I talked originally about you being in a restaurant, you said something that I 5,000 % agree with, which is everybody should at least once in their life work in a restaurant, because the amount of people skills and everything you can take away from that is incredible. So yeah.

Holly Naiman (04:57.859)

Yes.

Holly Naiman (05:10.413)

Yes.

Holly Naiman (05:15.074)

Yes. I couldn't agree more. People skills, time management, multitasking, all those things, all while creating sales and creating an experience for someone, right? Because in a restaurant, you create an experience for someone. And you do in other jobs, of course, too. But even collectors, they create an experience when they call the consumer. It's really important. And I think a lot of the times we lose.

Katalina Dawson (05:26.55)

and the respect group.

Katalina Dawson (05:37.674)

Yes.

Holly Naiman (05:42.084)

because we're human, lose sight of that on how to create an enjoyable experience no matter what you're doing. And restaurant industry definitely teaches you that.

Katalina Dawson (05:50.432)

Yeah.

Katalina Dawson (05:54.518)

Yeah, and a sense of respect for people who work in the service industry. I feel like it tends to be blatantly honest or obvious, excuse me, people who have never worked in any form of the service industry. Exactly, yeah. So just getting your feet a little wet in that at some point in your life is totally worth it. What you take away from it is huge.

Holly Naiman (05:57.88)

Yes.

Holly Naiman (06:06.052)

Just based on the way they behave when you're out to dinner with them, you're like,

Holly Naiman (06:18.542)

Yes. Yeah.

Katalina Dawson (06:22.62)

So from there, you moved into that management and how did you come up with this idea to really harness that emotional intelligence and look into that as a way to manage better?

Holly Naiman (06:36.26)

So I had a unique situation where I had left work and then wasn't planning on going back to work. I was just going to be a stay at home mom and the owners kept calling me saying, when are you coming back? When are you coming back? I said, I can't come back. I can't work these nights. You know, I have kids now. I would love to, but I just can't. I can't make it work. doesn't make sense with the hours and the timing and Mark working and me working. I'm good. And they said, no, no, no, you create your own position and come back.

And I said, wow, that is so awesome. So I got, I put my little thinking cap on and I thought, how can I create a position there that does not exist that also increases sales by at least 20%. Like that was my goal of 20 % increased sales. How can I do that? And so I really started thinking, Hmm, I can tap into these employees emotional state.

Katalina Dawson (07:09.078)

as

Holly Naiman (07:31.246)

per se or just have them check in. Like I'm not tapping into it, but I'm having a conversation with them where they can tap into it and find their full potential because we are our worst critic, right? And so I came up with these reviews and I said, Hey, and honestly, it wasn't mandatory. I just said, Hey, if anyone would like a review on how they're doing, let's set up a meeting and people signed up. And then once people signed up and realized what it was,

Katalina Dawson (07:43.414)

100%.

Holly Naiman (08:00.964)

Eventually all the stuff was in my office and I was meeting and it was great and I got to choose my own hours and what have you. But how I structured those reviews was I would ask them, what's your function? What do you do here? And know, a hostess might say, I greet people. I seat people. I answer the phone. I, know, whatever those things are. And there was never a wrong answer. I would just listen and say, my gosh, that's incredible. You're right. That is what you do. And then I say,

Katalina Dawson (08:03.67)

Well, the first one.

Holly Naiman (08:29.954)

on a scale of one to 10, one being terrible and 10 being extraordinary. Where do you rate yourself in greeting people at the door? Like, do you make eye contact with all of them? Are you greeting each of them? Are you explaining, you know, and then you can go on to like, when you go to see them, you explaining, telling them who their server's gonna be and what the dinner specials are? All of those little things that sometimes can get lost when you're, you know, in a very busy environment.

Holly Naiman (08:56.416)

Some of those steps can get missed and so I would just ask them like how are you on each function that they said? From 0 to 10 and some would say I'm a 6 and I'd be like, okay great Give me three things you can implement and work on to get yourself to attend and they would Tell me and I would write them down and then if they were a 10 I'd say okay, then let's push for 15. What are three things you can implement and then?

we would go on to the next question. It was so interesting to see their reaction to their own self-reflection. Not everybody self-reflects. And so that was my way to kind of get them to look at self and how they function at work and how they're doing. For servers specifically, I would explain to them that you do realize you, like you, your section is your own restaurant.

Holly Naiman (09:47.65)

You own this. You're not the owner. You are the owner of this section. You're not the owner of the whole restaurant, but you are of this section when you come in here and treat it as such. Right. And so, and then I would talk to them and kind of give them that type of feel that, wait, you're right. I do own this section and it seems so simple, but it is, it works. And so when I would talk to them about, you know, what their function was and how

Katalina Dawson (09:58.645)

Okay.

Holly Naiman (10:15.108)

how well are you doing from here to there? And then my final question to all of them would be, do you want to go on vacation? And they'd say, yes, of course. mean, no one says no. At least I never had anyone say no. But I'd say, do you want to go on vacation? And they'd say, yes. And I'd go, great. What does that dream vacation look like to you? And then I would write down everything that they said about their dream vacation. And then we would research how much it would cost.

Katalina Dawson (10:26.388)

Nah, but I think it's a little a readout, like...

Holly Naiman (10:41.174)

And we would say, okay, well, this is how much you need in order to go on that dream vacation. And so what are your sales right now? These are your sales. If you sold X amount more per shift, this is that money could be put aside and within six months, eight months, some people it was two months, depending on what it was that they were planning, you can go on that vacation and I'm here to support you. Like, and they're like, what? Yeah. And it just, worked because I think a lot of the times in the, in the service industry or cash.

Katalina Dawson (11:02.858)

That's incredible.

Holly Naiman (11:10.968)

flow industry per se, when you're working with tips, right? So it's a lot of easy come easy go. And I was noticing that, you know, our staff was constantly trying to pick up shifts towards the end of the month because they needed to make rent and they just work, you know, they work and make a good 500, 600 bucks in a shift and then go right out and spend it at the bar and hang out with their friends or do whatever or splurge on clothes. And, know, to each their own, you can do that, but you're never going to get to your

vacation, let alone a house to buy a house, a car, those types of things. and that kind of ties into, you know, financial literacy, which is very uncommon in younger young adults. You know, it's, it isn't unfortunately, and I'm sure all of us, not all of us, but most of us ended up in some sort of credit card debt when we were in college, because no one taught us about interest rates or anything like that. But

Katalina Dawson (11:44.96)

yet.

Katalina Dawson (11:50.707)

you

Katalina Dawson (11:55.254)

It's not taught. It's really not taught in schools. Yeah, 100%.

Holly Naiman (12:11.288)

Yeah, so I truly enjoyed doing it. was great to see those employees thrive and work for their goals.

Katalina Dawson (12:12.31)

You

Katalina Dawson (12:18.496)

Well, and what I love about what you did there, it's more than just self-reflection. You did a self-reflection with them, but you also kind of showed them their own stake in it. So you gave them this pride in their own work. So it's self-reflection with a sense of pride. And then you went, all right, well, let's take that self-reflection and let's point it at something. Let's reflect on what you want in life and use it to actually point a compass in a direction and head that way.

Holly Naiman (12:40.323)

Yes.

Katalina Dawson (12:48.968)

So that's so cool.

Holly Naiman (12:49.86)

Yes. And it was so, thank you. And it was so fun because, you know, I would, when I wasn't having meetings, I would go in a couple nights a week and I would pull out my files and I'd be like, okay, Catalina is working on da, da, da, da, da. Perfect. I'd walk out on the floor and say, I'm here to support you on X, Y, and Z that we discussed. Like, but you came up with that. I didn't, right? So I wouldn't say that to them, but they were very, my gosh, thank you so much. I'm like, how can I support you tonight? Whether it's helping them run food or.

Katalina Dawson (13:12.384)

Yeah.

Holly Naiman (13:19.118)

helping their table turn times, like clocking their table turn times for them or whatever it was, I was there to support them. And it was easy for me. They did all the work. I just guided their own process because they were all incredible, incredible employees and incredible people and the most eclectic group of people. And they all came from different backgrounds, but they all had that one common goal that they were in charge. And it really was cool to see and watch them blossom.

So yeah.

Katalina Dawson (13:49.438)

That is, you're enhancing their focus, their communication, their drive. It's incredible what you can do. And I think you told me before that those were like 10 minute meetings. That's all it took. Within 10 minutes.

Holly Naiman (13:54.905)

Yeah.

Holly Naiman (14:00.534)

Yeah, it was very fast. Very fast. with it, well, right? And because we didn't have to elaborate on anything. Those that I sat down and planned vacations with took a little longer. But just the like review of bullet points of what do you do and what are three things you can implement for each function to get better at that, that was a very quick 10 minute conversation. Because I would never be like, I disagree. You think you're an eight? No, you're actually a three. I would never, ever, ever say that.

Sometimes I would say, you say you're a six, I see you as a nine. I see you do this, I see you do that. It was always positive reinforcement and true. But I never was negative. never, even if some were rating themselves higher, I never said, I was like, okay, great, we can still implement three things. And of course, the outcome of all of that was better morale with all the staff together collectively, morale with the guests.

Katalina Dawson (14:41.366)

Yeah.

Holly Naiman (14:58.634)

Sales, guess what sales did? They certainly increased. They all went up because everyone was happy and everyone was making money and there was no like, I don't want to be here. They were walking into an environment that they were going to make money and they were in charge and they had all the support they needed.

Katalina Dawson (15:15.316)

And so as a leader too, by helping each of them reach their individual goals, your original goal was sales up by 20%. I'm assuming you also probably reached that.

Holly Naiman (15:25.38)

Correct. yes, we did and beyond, which was great. Yeah, yeah, it was awesome.

Katalina Dawson (15:29.972)

Fantastic. Doesn't leader by helping them reach their goals. You can reach your goals too. And then what do you do as a leader too, to self-reflect? Cause I know it's great to help your team self-reflect, but that's gotta be important too for leadership to do.

Holly Naiman (15:36.344)

Correct.

Holly Naiman (15:48.324)

And I would suggest the exact same thing. What are my functions as a leader and where am I honestly at with myself? Because we all know like, gosh, I could have returned that email faster. could have done, know, whatever that little task is that you're procrastinating on or things like that, your efficiency. We're all human and everything ebbs and flows. So the exact same thing I did with the staff, you just have to do with self.

and even have a conversation. I know that I talk to Mark all the time, like how's my performance in this? Like what's going on? And you know, of course with kids, I'm constantly reflecting and thinking, where am I going wrong? My little kids were so amazing and other teenagers, and I'm going crazy. But self-reflection for sure, as a leader. know, my current role is, as Mark calls it, queen of the castle, which is of our home. And I run all the, yeah, so.

Katalina Dawson (16:26.494)

Yeah.

Katalina Dawson (16:43.573)

on it.

Holly Naiman (16:46.21)

I'm killing it, I'm doing good at that.

Katalina Dawson (16:48.18)

Right. Well, and I love the idea of self reflecting within your specific role to like, what are my functions here and things? I think there's also something to be said about looking at yourself as a whole even and being like, hey, what am I good at? What am I not good at? Because if you step outside of your role and sometimes take stock in like, where do you shine? Like, for example, in my in my own company, I looked at

What am I good at from my past? Well, I used to do like acting and things like that. Well, that's what led to career path. It's like taking stock of where you're better at things. If you stuck me in data management, I'm not very good at that. That would be a quick fail for me. But yeah, just taking stock of yourself in all the different realms of yourself and then applying that into your job, looking at, then what are the functions of my role and where can I take what I'm good at?

Holly Naiman (17:26.968)

or

Yeah, for sure.

Katalina Dawson (17:46.238)

and plug it into this so that I can boost that focus, that collaboration with my team, that fuel a passion for what I'm doing.

Holly Naiman (17:55.266)

Yes, yes. 100 % true. And I also think too, you know, there's, have, you know, everyone has little breakdowns that happen in their career or even day to day functions. And that self reflection helps you go, okay, how quickly can I turn this into a breakthrough? Like, what am I learning from this? How am I, where am I going from this? It's all about switching those breakdowns into breakthroughs and just pushing forward. You made up a, you,

you mentioned a very important point, is reflecting on, like you said, I found what I'm good at. If you would have put me in data management, no, thank you. Like, no, that's huge. And I think a lot of times people take a job just because they take the job and they see the title and they see the money and they're actually not good at it. And then of course that doesn't mean they can't learn, that, and of course they can and I'm sure they do, but they're not happy. mean,

Katalina Dawson (18:43.53)

Yeah.

Holly Naiman (18:50.124)

I can't speak for everyone, but I've seen it before where they've learned the skill, they do the job, but then yet they're not quite happy in that position because it's not where they really thrive, but they did it. That actually made me think about titles. That was a big one that we would discuss in our meetings because I would ask, you where do you want to be?

Katalina Dawson (18:58.731)

Yeah.

Holly Naiman (19:16.542)

I want to be, cause you know, not everyone chooses the restaurant industry as a career. unless you're, you end up buying your own restaurant and it becomes your career, of course, but you know, it's, it's kind of a gateway position or an experience position, something to put on your resume. It's easy cash. It's, you know, good hours. If you're a student and you can go to school and then go to work at night. And there's all those benefits of, of that. but it's.

Katalina Dawson (19:21.941)

Yeah.

Holly Naiman (19:45.378)

I would always find it interesting if someone's like, I want to be a CEO of a company or I want to be this or I want to be that. I think a lot of the times people get caught up on the actual title instead of what it actually means to be in that. Because some people in a lot of industries and a lot of places get moved up to a certain title and they think with that title comes more money and more power and more this and more that. When in reality,

Katalina Dawson (20:00.746)

Yeah.

Holly Naiman (20:13.004)

Look, there is no such thing as a bad employee. It's bad management. And if you don't work your way as a manager or CEO or whatever that title is, if you're not doing your job, your team's not going to perform and it's not their fault. Some weed themselves out, of course, but as a manager, think it's super important to realize that if you're having a breakdown with your team,

Katalina Dawson (20:26.57)

Yeah.

Holly Naiman (20:36.278)

It is your responsibility to figure out where that breakdown is happening with who do some reflection and support that person. And if it's not a position they want to be in anymore, they will weed themselves out. You do not have to fire them. Trust me. I mean, not in every position, but in the restaurant, that's how it works.

Fair, Fair. Well, I want to do something kind of fun with you that we've never done on Career Path before. I have a little self-reflection assessment that we can do together. And I'd love to do it live with you. So I've already done it before, but I will be sharing my answers as we go. So you'll hear mine as well. But that way, we get to go through it with you one by one. And anybody who's listening,

Holly Naiman (20:59.248)

boy. Okay.

Holly Naiman (21:13.911)

OK.

Katalina Dawson (21:19.758)

if you're not driving or something, listening to this as a podcast, go ahead and jot down your answers as well, because this is very fun. I originally stumbled upon this as a, it's supposed to be one of the best things you can do on a first date because it cleverly reveals what, what people are. It's, hard to explain. It reveals a couple of different aspects of who people are without you exactly.

knowing what it is as you're taking the test. This will become clearer in a minute. Yeah, so in a little bit of a way, you're gonna give answers and you're not gonna really understand what it means until the end and I go over it basically. So there's technically four questions. We are gonna skip the third, cause it's not work friendly. Like I said, originally this is more of a dating thing, but everybody I have done it with, everybody I've done it with,

Holly Naiman (21:52.878)

Got it. So it's kind of like the love language test. Sort of. Well, we'll see.

Holly Naiman (22:04.963)

Okay, okay, let's do it.

Katalina Dawson (22:19.068)

It is incredibly insightful and accurate. I have never done it with somebody and have them be like, no, that doesn't match with me at all. there's like, my God, you know what? Yeah, so it's kind of fun. So the first one is I want you to select an animal, any animal, it's up to you. Any animal, select one that you really like. And then I need three aspects.

Holly Naiman (22:26.884)

Sure.

Katalina Dawson (22:48.042)

from you about why you really like the animal. For example, mine is, picked owls. They're one of my favorite animals. So I said, I really like owls because they represent wisdom. They're very loyal and they have this sense of being majestic. So those are my three things, the wisdom, loyal and majestic. So pick an animal and I'd love to hear your three things that I'm gonna write down for you.

Holly Naiman (23:11.076)

okay. Well, my favorite animal is a dolphin.

Katalina Dawson (23:18.038)

Okay, great answer.

Holly Naiman (23:18.424)

Yes. Mark's in the kitchen laughing at me. He's laughing because we have some very funny dolphin stories, which I can share later. I will for sure.

Katalina Dawson (23:24.438)

I'm so in love.

Katalina Dawson (23:28.696)

my God. Well, you need to do this with Mark too. I'm curious to hear his answers. Okay, so dolphin and three reasons why.

Holly Naiman (23:37.432)

Three reasons. One, they live in the ocean, and the ocean is one of my happiest places.

Katalina Dawson (23:42.752)

So it needs to be a characteristic of them, like loyal or...

Holly Naiman (23:44.544)

characteristic. Okay. They are very loyal. Yes.

Katalina Dawson (23:49.128)

Is that a reason, but is that a reason why you like them? That was my answer for owl.

Holly Naiman (23:52.644)

yes, yes, actually it is the reason. is a reason. Mm hmm. They are Catalina. This is hard. They are.

Katalina Dawson (23:55.734)

Okay, so they're loyal.

Katalina Dawson (24:00.534)

two other characteristics.

Katalina Dawson (24:05.226)

You're not the only one. I'm sure other people are chatting stuff down right now going,

Holly Naiman (24:09.834)

I know, well, we're gonna probably have to edit this, cause I'm gonna take a minute here. What else are they amazing? They're just, are, I mean, you said majestic, but they really are majestic. Like just the way they move through the water and they're so calming.

Katalina Dawson (24:26.838)

It's okay if you have the same as me. fact, love her. Ooh, love. So do you want to do loyal, majestic and loving? Loyal, majestic, loving. Okay. Great answers. All right. So now we switch gears. Now you need to pick an article of clothing and three characteristics as to why you like that article of clothing. For me, I picked a jacket. I love a good jacket because they're warm. They can also be very versatile.

Holly Naiman (24:29.036)

loving and calming.

calming and loving. Yes.

Katalina Dawson (24:57.094)

and stylish. So that's why I like a warm, versatile, stylish. What is yours? It could be a hat. It could be glasses, shoes. There you go. Why shoes?

Holly Naiman (25:02.98)

Shoes. Shoes.

They always fit.

Katalina Dawson (25:11.882)

Always fit, okay.

Holly Naiman (25:13.502)

huh. And they are super cute. Or stylish, I guess that would be.

Katalina Dawson (25:20.534)

stylish.

Holly Naiman (25:23.546)

and functional.

Katalina Dawson (25:27.614)

Okay, always fit. Trying to get always fit down to like a characteristic word. There is a word similar to versatile, I think.

Holly Naiman (25:30.413)

Is that not?

Holly Naiman (25:39.94)

think versatile is good. Multipurpose. Yeah.

Katalina Dawson (25:39.956)

Multipurpose, multipurpose. There you go. Multipurpose, stylish and functional. Let me get that jotted down. Multipurpose. Okay. Last one, cause we're skipping number three. This one's very unique, bear with me. Imagine you just wake up and you are in a room. It is white walls, white ceiling, white floor. Everything is white. You can't see anything.

There are no windows, no doors, nobody there. Just you, nothing in the room, white room, no windows, no doors. Give me three immediate feelings. How would you feel in that? For me, or I'll tell you mine in a minute. I wanna hear your immediate feelings. Okay?

Holly Naiman (26:24.292)

I anxious.

Holly Naiman (26:30.382)

Crap.

Holly Naiman (26:37.7)

Bye.

and alone.

Katalina Dawson (26:42.838)

Okay, interesting. All right, so are you ready to hear your vote? You are the only one in room. Yes. Yes. Okay, so that's very interesting. And now we're gonna go over the results and explain everything. Confused, curious, and determined. I love a good escape room, so I'm like, all right, what's next? How do I get out of here? Like, determined.

Holly Naiman (26:46.19)

I am the only one in the room, right? I'm the only one in the white room? Okay.

Holly Naiman (26:55.8)

What were your three for the white room?

Holly Naiman (27:01.646)

Ooh, that's pretty good.

Holly Naiman (27:06.336)

not me. Nope, nope. I don't like being in elevators. I don't like being in small spaces. I don't like being, I'm like, that room sounds like hell.

Katalina Dawson (27:11.446)

And that's fair. Okay. So the first one, the animal, that is how you would like to be in the world. Because when you pick a favorite animal and you have three characteristics you like about them, you're picking things that you want to embody and you want to see in yourself. So for you, you love loyalty. You love like,

majestic, like that beauty in the world, and you love loving. So dolphin, loyal, majestic, loving, those are things that you want to embody. Yeah, right? It's so true. Mine is.

Holly Naiman (27:44.174)

Yes, that is so true.

It's so true. We were just having a conversation about this last night. My neighbor was over and he says, know, cause the kids have gotten older, but every year I would do this big Christmas party for all the kids on my street and I would have a Santa come and they would all get matching pajamas. And it was just that loving community that I love to create and be around people and just spread love and joy and happiness. I know it sounds cheesy, but it's so great. Yeah.

Katalina Dawson (28:11.83)

And I feel that from you, 100%. And I feel that from you. I think you do embody that. You really do. And for mine to reflect again, it was the owl with wisdom. And I've always respected wisdom so much. Like I grew up with Harry Potter, like Ravenclaw, like loving learning and books and all of that. And loyal was another one of mine. So just like yours, I love that being connected with people and then majestic, which is kind of a skill.

Holly Naiman (28:18.187)

Thank you.

Holly Naiman (28:31.212)

Yes.

Holly Naiman (28:39.372)

And people know me, you, those that like know me, me, know if you are not loyal to me, you are no longer in my life and that's okay. But I haven't, I'm very Taurus like that and I have no issue just cutting someone else indefinitely. I will always be cordial if I see them, but they are no longer a part of my life. So, it's kind of harsh, but.

Katalina Dawson (28:55.552)

there.

Katalina Dawson (28:59.734)

Got, yeah, there. Well, there you go. And that perfectly matched you with the dolphin. Now the next one, the article of clothing, it is supposed to represent, this was also, I believe, developed by a psychologist, if I'm not mistaken. So quick side note on that. But an article of clothing is how you wanna be perceived by others in the world. So it's not always exactly what you want to embody. Like I don't always wanna be seen.

Holly Naiman (29:16.877)

Okay.

Katalina Dawson (29:28.074)

as wisdom or the smartest person. what I do want to be seen as is somebody who's warm, which I was like, my God, that really is. Yeah, I want to be seen as somebody who's warm, who's versatile. But I feel like versatile in a human form is more like easygoing and able to talk to anyone and stylish. And yeah, I love to be seen as stylish. I love fashion. So was like, my God, that fits me perfectly. And for you, your shoes.

Holly Naiman (29:30.788)

store.

Holly Naiman (29:36.833)

Yeah.

Holly Naiman (29:48.735)

Yeah, of course.

Katalina Dawson (29:54.326)

You also picked like versatile and multi-purpose and yeah, my god the different hats that you wear in your life. It's so true. And then you're also incredibly stylish. You have a very set like style and fashion and like, and the last one is functional. And from the day that I met you, you get things done. You seem like somebody who's like, yeah, how do we get from point A to point B? How do we get to your goal?

Holly Naiman (30:01.156)

Thank you, that's so true. God, this is so crazy.

Holly Naiman (30:09.892)

Thank you.

Holly Naiman (30:21.774)

Yes. my gosh, that's so weird. This is so great. Yeah.

Katalina Dawson (30:22.848)

How do we get you on vacation? Like you are.

Isn't it fun? I hope people who are going over their results at home right now are also having a great time. So the last one is totally different. And there is a way it can relate back to work as well. But it is supposed to be an analogy for death. The white room. Because it's something so unknown and kind of scary. thinking about being that kind of a scenario, how would you feel?

Holly Naiman (30:32.426)

Yeah, for sure.

Holly Naiman (30:45.644)

Interesting. Okay.

Katalina Dawson (30:56.514)

And yeah, thinking about death, there's a sense of confusion for me, but there's also a sense of curiosity. Like it does pique my interest. And there is also a huge sense of determination for me, because I'm always like, I want to get things done before I die then. Like I got stuff to do. So like that is perfect for me. But it also can parallel how you, like in the workplace, how

Holly Naiman (31:13.539)

Yeah.

Right, right.

Katalina Dawson (31:26.44)

you approach very difficult situations? Do you approach them with curiosity and determination and also confusion? Yes, I feel like that's me. It hits me and I'm like, my God, I'm so confused, but I'm also kind of curious about it and I'm a little determined too. So for you, said you feel instantly you've got this like anxious feeling. You feel a little trapped and you feel alone.

Holly Naiman (31:42.008)

Right.

Holly Naiman (31:55.469)

Yup.

Katalina Dawson (31:56.106)

Does that resonate with you as well? Is that kind of, well, let's see, first, is that how you feel about death?

Holly Naiman (31:59.349)

Yes.

Holly Naiman (32:04.836)

Wow, I guess so. I'm not afraid of dying though, so I'm not, maybe the anxious part is from just not knowing how it's gonna happen perhaps. I don't know, cause I don't really, I don't know. And then what was the other one I said was.

Katalina Dawson (32:23.254)

You said, now this may be a little skewed though, because you do have a little bit of like that claustrophobia. So maybe the room was a little hard. Maybe I should have said it was very wide open.

Holly Naiman (32:25.954)

Alone.

Holly Naiman (32:30.752)

Yeah, for sure.

Holly Naiman (32:35.236)

Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting. I'm trying to relate of so like why that would be definitely there. is skewed because I mean, I do I do have claustrophobia issues, but but like feeling trapped. But I think alone too, I've never I don't ever want to die alone. Like I just want would want someone by my side. And it just I mean, when my father was passing and my mom, I remember

Katalina Dawson (32:48.662)

That's clear, maybe a little sweet.

Katalina Dawson (32:56.714)

Yeah. Yeah.

Holly Naiman (33:05.708)

I was in charge of the medical stuff and decisions because she was clearly not of her right mind because she was just so sad. anyway, it was beautiful that he passed with my mom holding him and my sister and I by his side too. So I would hate to die alone. mean, even when COVID was happening and people were dying in the hospital, it was just awful. That is a fear of mine and I just don't want that to ever happen. But yeah, so interesting. That is very interesting.

Katalina Dawson (33:26.826)

Yeah, 100%. It would be awful.

So does it resonate with you at all with how you would react to like fighting a big issue or at work?

Holly Naiman (33:43.784)

No, it doesn't. It doesn't at all. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, because I'm definitely not alone. I have plenty of support, you know. I do definitely feel alone sometimes in parenting. And that's no dig on Mark. It's just alone, but with him. If that makes sense, like parenting is, there's a million books about it and we're just constantly looking at each other like.

Katalina Dawson (33:45.29)

And I think that might be because it's a little skewed because of the claustrophobia. You are the first person I've done this with who has claustrophobia.

Holly Naiman (34:11.544)

Yeah, there's a million books, but none of them pertain to our kids. And are we doing this right? You know, reaching out to other parents, like, are you're teenagers going through this too? Like, I feel a little alone here. Like I didn't do this stuff or whatever. but yeah. Yeah, I don't.

Katalina Dawson (34:17.366)

Yeah?

Katalina Dawson (34:24.374)

Weird.

For you, I honestly feel like your answers for the room are almost the opposite of how you combat challenges. instead of being anxious, yeah, instead of being anxious, you tend to be more determined. Instead of feeling trapped, you're always looking at all the different options. And instead of feeling alone, you look at the people around you to leverage. So.

Holly Naiman (34:38.262)

I couldn't agree more because that's not how I combat them at all.

Yes.

Holly Naiman (34:53.774)

Absolutely, yes.

Katalina Dawson (34:54.952)

In a way, I think it still gave you your answer, but it's like the flip of it.

Holly Naiman (34:58.948)

flip side. because we just got to take that little claustrophobic out of there. It needed to be a different space.

Katalina Dawson (35:02.634)

Yeah, it might be a little scary. If anybody at home also has claustrophobia and had your last answers a little skewed, I'm curious. Please put it in the comments below. I'd be interested to see. But I'm also going to send these to you, Holly, so that you get to save your results. Because I think it's a very, very interesting little test. And when you look at it and you get to reflect on yourself, you're like, wow.

Holly Naiman (35:18.325)

Yeah, that'd be great.

Katalina Dawson (35:28.286)

I do want to embody those things, or I do like people to perceive me that way. And you get to see how you're interacting in the world a little bit and then look at work. How do I do that at work? Well, I am warm. I try to be very warm at work and at events, I try to be versatile and like talk to everybody. And like, there is a lot to say about like looking at yourself and then applying it. Yeah. Awesome.

Holly Naiman (35:38.756)

door.

Holly Naiman (35:52.192)

so interesting. Yeah. Very cool. Thank you. That was fun.

Katalina Dawson (35:57.334)

And thank you so much for doing that with me. That was really fun to try something a little different on the episode. But we are out of time. Thank you so much for coming on, sharing your experience.

Holly Naiman (36:00.748)

Yeah.

Holly Naiman (36:06.564)

Thank you for everything. Yes, of course. Thanks for having me.

Katalina Dawson (36:10.934)

It is such a pleasure. And to all of our listeners, if you have any questions, comments, you want to share your results, please put them down below. I am super curious to read about it. Otherwise, I will see you in the next episode.

Holly Naiman (36:12.579)

Yeah.

Holly Naiman (36:23.672)

Yes, and I'll see you at DCS and CRS. CRS is coming up around the corner. All right, thanks, honey. I'll see you soon. Bye.

Katalina Dawson (36:25.78)

Yes, see you there. See you there.

Katalina Dawson (36:32.256)

See you soon, bye.